Examination of Witnesses (Questions 216
- 219)
THURSDAY 22 MARCH 2007
DR JANA HYBÁŠKOVÁ
Q216 Chairman:
Ms HybáŠková, we are very grateful that you
have come to meet this Committee. We are a Sub-Committee of the
European Union Committee of the House of Lords and our Committee
is charged with looking at the work of the European Union in the
areas of CFSP, ESDP and development aid. As well as looking at
the regular instruments we also carry out a certain number of
special examinations of a particular problem and we decided that
we would like to look at the question of the European Union and
the Middle East, so we have been taking evidence in London from
ambassadors from the countries concerned as well as from academics
and we will be taking evidence from Lord Patten and also from
the British minister with responsibility, and interestingly enough
next week we are very fortunate because the Ambassador of Israel
to the European Union, Dr Oded Eran, is coming to London to give
evidence to our Committee. While we are in Brussels we have been
seeing people in Commissioner Ferrero-Waldner's office—Patrick
Child and Hugues Mingarelli—and then we will be seeing people
in the Council Secretariat and Dr Solana tomorrow, so we are seeing
quite a range of people. What we would like to do today is discuss
with you how you see the political role of the European Union
in the Middle East and then go on to ask you some questions on
how you see specific aspects of European Union and Israel relations
and then perhaps also something on how effective you feel the
European Union's instruments have been in dealing with the particular
problem in the West Bank and in Gaza. I wonder whether you would
like to begin with your assessment of how you see the European
Union's policy on the Middle East peace process really since the
early 1990s and how you would describe the current approach of
the European Union.
Dr HybáŠková: First of all,
allow me to start with a question since this is the first time
I have had the honour and pleasure to be giving evidence to the
House of Lords. Would you be so kind as to tell me exactly what
is the position concerning the officiality of my name? Would my
name officially be part of any of your report?
Q217 Chairman:
There are two bases on which we can proceed. We thought that as
you were the Chairman of the Delegation for Relations with Israel
in the European Parliament that it would be appropriate for us
to ask to see you and we had hoped to see also your colleague
who is Chairman of the Delegation for Relations with the Palestine
Authority in the European Parliament. Unfortunately, it has not
been possible for him to be with us today. We are taking note
of what is being said at this meeting. You will be sent a copy
of the transcript of that note and you can correct it if any mistakes
have been made. Alternatively, if at any stage in our discussion
you would prefer us to proceed informally so that a note was not
being taken and you would prefer to move into that mode, we would
be very happy to do it like that, whichever you are happiest with.
Dr HybáŠková: Thank you very
much. I am sorry for the need for clarification but I am not an
experienced politician. I do not know how familiar you are with
my CV but I only became a politician when I became a member of
this house. I was a diplomat who served 15 years in the Czechoslovakian
and then Czech Foreign Service. I represent a very tiny political
party which is not a member of the Czech Parliament and I would
like to stress that I do not represent any position of my country.
I am also here as a member of the EPP, the People's Party but
the sole member from the EPP, and so I would rather proceed as
the Head of the Israeli Delegation to the European Parliament
rather than necessarily representing any political views of my
country or my political family here in this house. As a little
addendum—I am from a new country and we are sharing new
things with Europe and my knowledge of European structures and
European systems is as it is since we are new members to Europe
since 2004 so I kindly ask you for your understanding of my situation.
What is my assessment of the EU role in the Middle East peace
process? I think actually it has changed since the beginning of
this new century. In the 1990s the Middle East was still kept
as a little bit of a remnant of the Cold War with a quite gradual
participation of the United States in the MEPP. I think the situation
has changed dramatically first of all because of the change in
the post Cold War process and then specifically due to US engagement
in Iraq. There was kind of a vacuum which occurred in the MEPP
which was filled by Europe, but I feel it is more like Europe
is drawn to participate rather than it being European activity
as such, so it is more that we follow certain tendencies rather
than actively manage them. This is my first understanding. I think
that actually the same holds true for Israel since the Israelis
are discovering the fact that their relations with the United
States, due to Iraq and other concerns in the region, are not
what they used to be 10 years ago and they are more and more seeing
Europe as a necessary partner for the future stability and prosperity
of their country. I think that this means change. The role which
Europe has to fill in the Middle East peace process is more open
than it used to be, which does not necessarily mean that Europe
is filling it fully. I think that there is room for better-structured,
more effective and better-tailored EU policy towards the MEPP
than we have now. I still think that we react rather than act.
I still think that we have a more short-term than long-term understanding
of the situation. I still do not think that the European Union—and
I mean the Union as a set of institutions, and of course the Council
and the Member States are part of it—has a good architectural
understanding of all the interplay which happens these days in
the Middle East, concerning Russia, concerning China, concerning
the US, concerning the real possibilities for Europe, and concerning
the region itself. I would call for first of all a better analytical
understanding of the situation of the region and better-tailored
architecture of our involvement, which means more experts on the
Middle East than politicians. I would prefer to see it freer from
political influences and better suited to the needs of both partners—the
EU and the region. From my point of view it is still over-politicised
and it lacks the architectural design and understanding and therefore
it is still at a low level of effectiveness. Point two—and
this is very much my personal judgment coming to the European
Parliament—the MEPP is not just part of the Middle East
or the Greater Middle East but the EuroMed or the Barcelona Process.
I think that this is different from the US's "Greater"
Middle East conception and I think the European conception is
still very much Mediterranean-based. Here I think it historically
comes back to very much a Socialist predominance and the very
important role of the countries of the southern flank—Greece,
Italy, Spain and France. I would rather see it more balanced with
the newcomers', with southern countries' and with the northern
countries' involvement and I do not think this is respected. From
my point of view it has too much of a Socialist heritage in it
and too much of a southern heritage in it. I am working on changing
these politics, let us put it that way. Concerning the Israeli/Palestinian
conflict (which does not necessarily mean Israel/Arab conflict)
I would say that it is not yet balanced and that we are much more
on the side of the Palestinians than on the side of the Israelis.
Here I speak not only as the head of the Israeli delegation but
as somebody coming from a new part of Europe. We still feel that
Israel is the occupying force and that is the main source of lack
of stability and that is the main source of all the atrocities
happening and if we suppressed Israeli intentions we would get
more positive things from the Palestinians. That is not my reading
of the EU position and I am critical of that. I personally would
seek more balance and I do not think it is balanced at the moment.
That does not mean that I am not for a viable Palestinian state.
On the contrary, I took part in quite a lot of the negotiations
around this and we definitely need to strengthen the Palestinians.
I think that this is where the Israelis themselves make a mistake
because they think that building the wall and having the rest
behind the wall and throwing the keys across the wall is the solution,
which it definitely is not. Europe has to work more with the Israelis
and tell them that they should care more for the Palestinians
and that does not necessarily mean only talking to the Palestinians
and telling the Israelis "you do your own job". So this
is the political framework. We have a problem here very clearly
with Mr Solana because he is neither transparent nor accountable
to the house. The current set-up of the EU CFSP is bizarre, having
a Council which is the centre of Member States' decisions and
having a Commission doing its everyday work and having us putting
forward grand political ideas and then having Solana running here
and there and doing things that are absolutely not representing
new European countries nor the position of my political family
in this house, so I am very critical here. Concerning our effectiveness,
given the fact that we do not speak with a unified and united
voice in the region, if we were less political we would be more
able to come to the EU and say what is the professional access
to the region and we would have more effective action there. Nevertheless
as of yesterday, 20 March 2007, there was the last statement of
the Quartet which I appreciate and I think it is quite a good
thing that the statement is as it is. We welcome and we follow
with deep interest the work of the Palestinian Unity Government.
Nevertheless, we have be very clear and unified and tell the world
about the recognition of the right of the state of Israel to exist,
which does not necessarily mean recognition of its current borders;
non-violence, which means more than hudna, and respect.
It is not only respect (because this is where we have concerns
concerning the PLO) because for "respect" there is a
word ihtiram in Arabic which exists in the Mecca proclamation
but we needed the word iltizam which means "to be
bound by", and this is a word we do not have yet, and according
to my reading if Europe stands unified right now and speaks with
one clear voice this will be of much more help to the Palestinians
than if we say, "We would like you to have the National Unity
Government because this will solve all the problems." It
will not solve all the problems in my reading.
Q218 Lord Lea of Crondall:
Can I just pick up a point.
Dr HybáŠková: I think I have
covered the first few questions.
Q219 Lord Lea of Crondall:
If you glance at the questions which you are very heroically addressing
without having seen them before, I think you have dealt with some
of the questions in 1) and 2) but one part of the second question
is relating to the role of the Quartet. I was particularly interested
in your remark about the fact that you thought that many people—and
please correct me if I misheard you—in Israel who had thought
that they had a pretty good relationship which was sufficient
for them, namely a relationship with the United States, that in
this century for a number of reasons it has started to change.
I would be interested if you can elaborate on that because it
does relate to, as it were, the interface and the recognition
that the EU has a role to play. We have had evidence from one
or two Israelis along the lines that many people in Israel do
not really want a strong role for the EU because it cuts against
the role of the exclusive relationship between Israel and the
United States.
Dr HybáŠková: Thank you very
much. This is my second opportunity today to answer the same question.
I try to draw a distinction between the EU and Europe—Europe
as a continent of citizens and states and the EU as a set of institutions,
the Council, the EP and the Commission. I think that we have to
be very careful. I cannot speak about Israeli public opinion even
though I follow quite closely developments there, but I am very
well aware that (and this is not what I was speaking about) EU/Israeli
bilateral relations are coming so maybe Israeli bilateral relations
will be part of the answer because it is one thing to have the
hidden (or non-hidden fear) from the people like Solana, Ferrero-Waldner,
Borrell or Pöttering and the symbols of the institutions
participating politically in MEPP and another thing to have the
broader Israeli public, commercial, technological, cultural and
educational interests in Europe, and these are two different poles.
Concerning the first one I think it goes hand in hand with what
I said previously about my description of Mr Solana's work and
let us say the political symbolism of the old-fashioned Socialist
approach to the Mediterranean and Israel. This is of course where
the Israeli public still perceive Europe as doing this kind of
job and it is not very keen on the further involvement of Europe,
but if you talk to security experts, if you talk even to people
from Israeli NSC they are well aware of the need to collaborate
and they want to collaborate with Europe. As an interlocutor there
is one kind of co-operation which is part of a sub-committee to
the political committee and that is the EU/Israel action plan
and there is already a working group on what we call counter-terrorism.
Four or five years ago no-one would have thought that we could
have a common EU/Israeli counter-terrorism working group or committee
or sub-committee. We have it now and it works perfectly. We were
able to get rid of all political misunderstandings on what the
basis for terrorism is and there is a debate on biometrics, there
is a lot of technical debate, and a passenger data debate. It
is extremely important that this goes ahead so that the security
communities can talk to each other and can collaborate and can
deliver. There is still a problem of understanding by the Israeli
public and this is something where you can help us on and we all
have to work on the Israeli media and on Israeli opinion makers
to push them to understand better that the change has happened,
and it really has happened.
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