Examination of Witnesses (Questions 460-469)
Baroness Scotland of Asthal QC, Ms Ann McLaughlin
and Ms Melissa Bullen
6 JUNE 2007
Q460 Lord Mance: Minister, as a thumbnail,
could you give us any idea as to what scheme of enforcement you
might contemplate, assuming the present scheme involves the executing
authority reporting a breach on which the issuing authority then
acts? We have touched on the problems of delay when urgent action
is necessary and that sort of thing, and we have also touched
on the question of who might establish the breach. Have you got
any ideas as to that? Is it appropriate to have greater involvement
in the decision, firstly, as to the facts and, secondly, as to
what should happen consequential on the facts being taken by the
executing authority rather than the issuing authority?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: The first thing
to say, of course, is if you look at the Framework Decision, they
do not seem to have made any provision at all for enforcement,
and if there is going to be a practical system put in place, then
enforcement is going to be a critical issue. We think a power
of arrest does not[2]
need to be available in such circumstances and legislation would
be needed to grant the authority for this in the United Kingdom,
so that is something we will have to look at. Our current view
is the Framework Decision should be explicit in this regard, but,
again, we would be interested in what this Committee thought about
how we could use enforcement. You are taking a great deal of evidence
from a number of different parties and that is going to be important.
We are inclined to think there should be a discretion for the
executing state to deal with the minor infractions of an ESO,
but those are issues too which we would have to look at with a
great deal of care, particularly in terms of how other Member
States would seek to implement it in their jurisdictions. I think,
Lord Mance, you have already highlighted the differences there
are between us and some of our international colleagues.
Lord Mance: That is very helpful.
Q461 Lord Burnett: Minister, you
kindly said that you have just started formulating your views,
and you also, I think, said earlier that you would be keen to
see our report and it might give some weight to your report. When
do you think the Government will have formulated its views, and
when will they be available to us?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: As I have said,
this is very much at an early stage. The Portuguese Presidency
intend to have their first working meeting in ... When are the
Portuguese going to have their meeting?
Ms McLaughlin: There has not been a scheduled
meeting for this particular portfolio which I have heard of. I
have not been given an agenda as yet.
Q462 Lord Burnett: Forgive me, are
we going to wait for somebody else or are we going to formulate
our views?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: We are formulating
our view now. That is going to involve the criminal justice agencies,
Customs, the Ministry of Defence, the police and the CPS. The
criminal justice agencies' work is going to be orchestrated through
the Office for Criminal Justice Reform and we are working with
HMT and MoD to see how we implement these procedures. That is
the work which is going on now, right at this moment. Part of
that work will be looking at the issues this Committee has already
identified and looking at the cost issues which we have already
explored so that we are in a position, by the time we come to
the Portuguese Presidency, to have a clearer idea as to the sort
of structure we think would be feasible and which we may wish
to advocate to our other colleagues. Are we able at this stage
to say that we have a model which we think is ideal and, therefore,
should be advocated to other European partners? No, we are not.
Q463 Lord Burnett: When will we have
a model?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: I am not able to
tell you that because I do not know the stage which all the work
which is being done currently between Customs, MoD, police, CPS
and OCJR has reached. What I can say is work has to be done thoroughly
in order for us to make the best fist of what we would then propose.
Q464 Lord Burnett: You cannot hazard
a guess for us, Minister?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: I think it would
be unsafe and unsatisfactory for me to so do.
Q465 Lord Bowness: This is really
an observation. It is obviously going to be quite difficult if
we want to get it to the Portuguese Presidency because that starts
on 1 July and everybody goes on holiday until September and October,
so there is a very narrow window.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: We do not know
the timetable in the Portuguese Presidency when they are going
to have their first meeting. We have had one meeting under the
Germans, it may be that in the Portuguese Presidency they may
not decide to do this early on, and you will know that each Presidency
is in control of their agenda. This work has been undertaken by
us now, it is continuing to be done and work will, therefore,
need to be ready in some form by the time we know of the meeting
that they are going to have. You will also know that what we tend
to do is our officials talk to their counterparts, often long
before that meeting is put on the table, so there will be informal
working groups where our officials will be sent off to talk to
other people's officials and will come back and report. Is this
the only thing we have on our agenda? Trust me, it is not.
Q466 Chairman: No, Minister, I appreciate
that. The Framework Decision is just over nine months old, 29
August last year, and your own Home Office explanatory memorandum
was submitted on 20 September of last year indicating that you
were consulting with the police, the Crown Prosecution Service,
other government departments and other interested parties, but
the fact is those consultations have not yet produced anything
in the way of a coherent alternative plan or critique of the existing
decision. Would that be a fair statement?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: No, in as much
as it has produced assent. I could be here saying to the Committee,
"We are implacably opposed. We think this is a total waste
of time and hell will freeze over before we will do it",
that is not the position. The position is we have consulted our
different partners and we are all of the view that this is a good
idea, that we should be supportive of it, that we should instruct
all our officials to work as hard as they can to work it up in
order for us to have a coherent position which we will be able
to advocate to our other partners. We are delighted that this
Committee is taking such a huge amount of interest and taking
evidence. Why? Because it is going to be a fantastic assistance
to us because we will take all the things which you say and the
things which have been said to you into consideration when we
come to formulate the final position. I think that is quite a
positive position to be in. It may be that the Committee feels
things are not going as fast as they would like, but then we do
have, if I may say so as gently and respectfully as I can, a plethora
of other competing important work upon which we also have to deliver
which is very, very pressing. I can assure the Committee that
we feel this is something which is worth investing energy into
and that is why we are working on it and we have told our European
partners that we are supportive. Our European partners understand
that is something of importance.
Q467 Lord Clinton-Davis: Do you not
always have to prioritise whatever the issues of concern are?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: Yes.
Q468 Lord Clinton-Davis: It is inevitable
that you have to do that.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: Yes, and the truth
is this has now become one of our priorities. I cannot say to
this Committee it is the first amongst all the other priorities,
but it is certainly a priority which we are giving appropriately
trenchant energy and support. If it were not so, I would not be
saying this to the Committee.
Q469 Chairman: Minister, unless any
other Member of the Committee has any question, I think we have
exhausted enough of your time and we are very grateful to you
for giving us so much of it. Thank you very much indeed. You are
our last witness. We will now have to think of where we go from
here. Thank you very much.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: Thank you very
much to the Committee. I hope you will show the expedition which
you may think others have lacked.
Chairman: Thank you.
2 This comment was corrected in a letter from Admiral
the Lord West of Spithead, GCB, DSC (p. 94). Back
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