Examination of Witnesses (Questions 420-432)
Mrs Sue Hattersley, Miss Gill Fine, Ms Andrea Martinez-Inchausti,
Dr Ian Leitch and Mr Les Bailey
31 JANUARY 2007
Q420 Earl of Selborne: Can I come
back to the issues of catering establishments. Could I ask first
of all about the instance of severe allergic reactions from eating
out in catering establishments, is it getting better or worse?
Mrs Hattersley: I am not sure if it is getting
better or worse. We know that this is the more risky situation
rather than the pre-packed foods. As I said, we have been trying
to produce guidance for the industry so that when someone asks
them whether there is a particular allergen in a food they are
able to give accurate information back to the consumer.
Q421 Earl of Selborne: If the FSA
does not know whether this is a problem which is getting better
or worse, do any other of our advisers here present know whether
it is getting better or worse? Is there any monitoring?
Mrs Hattersley: The allergy clinics may record
the examples where the allergic reactions happen so there may
be some information coming from that side of things.
Q422 Earl of Selborne: You referred
to the guidance which will be coming out hopefully in the summer
which is guidance, as I understand, for the catering establishments;
presumably there is also a role in the training programmes. People
working in these establishments get qualifications from the environmental
health officer courses and elsewhere. Is there sufficient training
in the module for dealing with allergies and food intolerance?
Dr Leitch: I do not think that allergy has a
very high profile in a lot of the training. I think it is mentioned
in training documents as something that people in catering should
be aware of but I do not think there is any great exploration
of the detail. A lot of that is due to the fact that enforcement
officers themselves are on a very steep learning curve.
Q423 Earl of Selborne: Would you
feel that more needs to be done in training food operatives?
Dr Leitch: Yes. I think we should try to get
it, particularly with the catering colleges where most of the
food operatives originate. We need to make sure that it is on
the training syllabus for them. I also think we need to make sure
the enforcement officers are well trained so that we can get the
cascade effect where the officers can pass the information on
to the trade.
Mrs Hattersley: In terms of training for the
caterers, the Agency did ensure that in the training for the hospitality
sector through the National Occupational Standards there is an
inclusion of food allergy in the food safety modules so that people
who are being trained in the catering trade do have some awareness
of allergy and the particular problems. Also the Agency produces
guidance for the catering trade. In England it is called Safer
Food, Better Business and there are comparable documents in
Scotland and in Northern Ireland. There is an allergen safe method
within that so that when they are thinking about cross-contamination
for example of raw meat with cooked meat they can also be thinking
about cross-contamination of allergen containing foods and non-allergen
containing foods.[19]
Q424Chairman: I wonder if I could ask you, Dr
Leitch, to be a bit more specific about how you feel that training
could or should be improved. Are there some specific initiatives
that you have in mind?
Dr Leitch: Can I just think about that for a
while?
Q425 Chairman: While you do, I just
wanted to ask whether there are any global initiatives over food
labelling. We have spoken a bit about Europe, but we do have people
travelling all round the world in every direction.
Mrs Hattersley: Codex Alimentarius which was
mentioned previously does look at labelling and they are taking
forward an initiative to produce a standard for gluten free foods.
That work is on-going and there is a further meeting of that committee
in October this year so we are hoping we will actually get an
agreement on what gluten free should mean which will be helpful.
Q426 Chairman: Dr Leitch, have we
given you enough time to think?
Dr Leitch: I would say that my perceptions are
based on what I find as I talk to people in allergen control.
I believe that the training needs to be more practically based.
I think there is training, as Sue said, where documents are given
to the businesses, the documents contain a section on allergen
control—a short section—and every business should
have that. However, in terms of looking at that from a practical
view point I believe we need much more training from a workshop
perspective so that people can explore the issues dealing with
the allergens, where the allergens are found, what foods they
may be hidden in. Issues like dealing with the customers as well.
The biggest problem for someone with a food allergy is asking
someone in the trade, "Is this food suitable for me?"
Those issues need to be brought home in much more detail to the
catering trade so that the catering trade do not give the wrong
answer. One of the situations with the catering trade is that
for generations they have been taught that the customer is always
right and they try to be helpful and very often when they are
trying to be helpful they are putting the customer in danger.
That is one of the things that I think needs to be looked at in
terms of training. I did some sampling work a couple of years
ago in Northern Ireland to try to buy allergen free foods in takeaways
because that is where most of the accidents occur. We got a 20
per cent failure rate amongst the foods and we were assured that
those foods were suitable. We actually looked for a peanut-free
chicken curry but we had a 20 per cent failure rate, yet everybody
who sold that said that this is fine, it is suitable for the allergic
consumer. They were not aware of cross-contamination issues and
they did not know how the contaminates had got into the food.
I think we need to focus much more on that detailed side of things
with workshops where these issues can be explored rather than
just straight information on paper. I can also go on to say that
that is my feeling regarding the enforcement officers as well.
It is all very well to have it on paper but whenever you are asked
hard questions during an inspection you really do need to be much
more familiar with the topic and you need to drill down into it
in detail.
Q427 Chairman: Do I take that to
read that you feel that the environmental health officers do not
have an adequate understanding of food allergy and anaphylaxis?
Dr Leitch: I think that at the minute they have
a superficial understanding, the sort of thing you would get from
reading a leaflet. I think that they need a much more detailed
understanding. I think we are going to cover that in the final
question.
Q428 Chairman: Should we just go
straight into that now?
Dr Leitch: Certainly, yes.
Q429 Chairman: Would you like to
go straight into that question over the environmental officers
per se?
Dr Leitch: I was involved in 2005 with the Food
Standards Agency drawing up training materials for enforcement
officers. I am now on secondment to Safefood and to the EU body
CAWT to take that a stage further. We are involved in training
workshops during the summer and we are bringing in the enforcement
officers now. It is all environmental health officers because
it is only environmental health officers who are involved in food
control in Northern and Southern Ireland; the trading standards
officers do not have any food involvement there and certainly
we see the workshops as a very, very important tool that would
bridge the gap between the book-based knowledge and the trade.
I know in the UK that Sue and colleagues are running pilot training
for environmental health officers which I think is very, very
good. My only comment would be that that training should be rolled
out across all environmental health departments as soon as possible
and with trading standards colleagues as well because trading
standards are very heavily involved in the food labelling aspects
that we talked about earlier, making sure that the right labels
are on the right products. I think that is very important as well.
Mr Bailey: The allergen training courses are
being rolled out across the UK and they will be attended by environmental
health officers and trading standards officers. The take-up from
our officers has been very good.
Q430 Lord Colwyn: Most people who
have an allergy problem carry an EpiPen or something like that.
Do you think the time will come when catering establishments or
restaurants, as part of their licence, might have to show that
they have somebody on the staff who knows how to deal with allergies
and they have to have an EpiPen? I have to say that it is only
about a year ago since the EpiPens in this building were locked
up at 5.30 and nobody could get hold of them.
Dr Leitch: I think it would be very useful in
terms of their defence if anything went wrong because to show
due diligence they need to show that they have assessed hazards
and that they can control hazards. It is my belief that allergens
are a hazard that you deal with in just the same way as any other
hazard. As with food poisoning bacteria you should deal with the
allergen hazard in just the same way. You need to consider the
hazard and you need to put the controls into place. I would like
to see a position where when environmental health officers are
carrying out their inspections that allergens are assessed in
the same way as any other hazard.
Mrs Hattersley: If I could just add about the
training courses that we are rolling out, we are running 10 courses
across different areas of England from January through to March.
There will also be some courses in Scotland and in Northern Ireland.
These courses are being held in different areas but there are
people from a number of local authorities coming to each of these
courses. When we advertised for these 10 we had at least 30 local
authorities wanting to host these events so we will be rolling
out more later on in the next financial year.
Miss Fine: Could I just add a point about the
increased awareness that you were talking about, I think it is
absolutely fundamental that there is much more awareness across
all the different groups, not just the caterers but also the enforcers
and consumers. One thing we have not touched on is the importance
of working together to ensure that there is accurate information
for consumers and to help people to be more aware of the issues
(not just the individual but also their families and their carers,
which is where there is also a concern). The Agency has been working
with the British Dietetic Association to ensure that there is
information on both food intolerance and food allergy to help
people understand the nature of the condition but also how to
take action to manage their condition and to avoid triggering
a reaction. It is important that it is put into context, that
people know where to go to get accurate help to manage their condition.
I also want to add that in terms of information when foods are
improperly labelled for whatever reason, Sue mentioned withdrawal
notices. This information can go into food stores, and will probably
be put into a press release, or information could be put into
newspapers. We are very conscious that although this is very helpful
it is perhaps not as immediate as it might need to be. We are
therefore exploring other options and are about to introduce an
SMS texting initiative. People can subscribe to this (those who
do need to know when there is a problem with a label), and they
can get immediate information about that. I think it is about
raising awareness and providing practical help for individuals.
Q431 Lord Rea: In the training of
environmental health officers do you feel that there are sufficient
trainers of adequate calibre who have a detailed knowledge of
allergies and problems associated with it to go round?
Dr Leitch: I do not think there are. I think
it is a specialised area and it is important that you do not have
people giving out the wrong information. That is certainly an
area of concern.
Q432 Lord Rea: Where are they recruited
from? Who are we talking about when we talk about training people
in allergy control?
Dr Leitch: I do some training. There are very
few people who have completed any detailed training. There is
a lady in the public gallery, Hazel, who has done an awful lot
to raise allergy awareness and Hazel would be a trainer and I
know Hazel has trained one other person. There are very few people
with the detailed knowledge and training and that is perhaps another
concern.
Mrs Hattersley: The Agency does provide its
own training for environmental health officers and trading standards
officers. This is the work that we are rolling out. That was the
first step of what we are doing. What we want to do once we have
those courses up and running is to then talk to the general training
providers, including perhaps the undergraduate syllabuses for
environmental health officers so that we can start to introduce
allergy at a very early stage of training. That is certainly something
we want to look at in the coming year.
Dr Leitch: I agree absolutely with that and
I believe that that information will give training on a general
level but it will be crowding into the syllabus with everything
else that an undergraduate does. I believe there is certainly
room for specialist training in that area.
Chairman: Do any of our other witnesses
have anything else that you would like to inform us today in relation
to questions? No. Then can I thank you very much for having come
today, for your very clear answers which have informed the Committee.
If there is anything else that you would like to give us information
on, please feel free to write in after this session and it will
be considered along with your oral evidence. You will be sent
a copy of the transcript to correct for accuracy. Thank you.
31 JANUARY
2007
19 Enforcement Officer Training-In relation to training
for enforcement officers, we described the training that the Agency
is developing. However, you should also be aware that there are
many commercial organisations currently providing training for
Environmental Health Officers and Trading Standards Officers,
including the Chartered Institute for Environmental Health (CIEH).
The courses that they provide on food safety could be extended
to include food allergy and intolerance and we are aware that
there is a joint initiative between the Food Standards Agency
Wales and CIEH Wales to raise awareness both of food allergy and
intolerance issues with Welsh enforcement officers. Back
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