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The noble Lord drew our attention to the speech made by the right honourable gentleman the Prime Minister about the desirability of liberty. It was a bit rich for the Prime Minister to be lecturing us on the subject. He was a key member of the Government from 1997 to 2007 before he became Prime Minister, and just look at that Government’s record on liberty: strenuous attempts to get rid of jury trial and, with the 90-day limit, in effect to remove habeas corpus from the face of our law, if your Lordships recall; secretly negotiating with the United States to remove the right of citizens to have a prima facie case made against them before they could be extradited; the removal of the right not to have your previous offences put before the court; the destruction of the centuries-old common-law rule against propensity. That is a terrible record. If the Prime Minister is capable of improving on it, he will be improving only on the previous 10 years of his own Government’s disastrous decisions. I am delighted that the Prime Minister is thinking about this; but let no one pretend that this Government do not have an appalling record on all these issues.
Lord Morgan: My Lords, I am flattered by having this panoply of attention from the noble Lord. I said exactly that. I made remarks about Achilles’ heels and so on, which possibly slipped the attention of the noble Lord.
Lord Kingsland: My Lords, I was attacking not the noble Lord, Lord Morgan, but the Government of which Mr Brown was a prominent member, although that may now prove rather inconvenient to him.
I have long overstayed my welcome. I shall end by saying that it is going to be difficult to redress the balance between the Executive and Parliament—or at least between the Executive and the House of Commons—because the majority party is required to do two mutually conflicting things: to keep the Government in power but at the same time to keep them under control. How can you do both things at the same time? That is the fundamental issue that we have to face in our constitution.
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): My Lords, it is a formidable challenge to respond to what has been an excellent and wide-ranging debate in the 20 or so minutes that I am allowed. Although I do not see the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones, in her place, I pay tribute to her for her opening remarks and welcome her to her Front-Bench position. I pay tribute also to the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer. She has a deserved reputation in the House for hard work and she made an excellent contribution. I welcome her to her new role.
There can be no higher purpose for a government than to ensure the safety and welfare of their citizens, but as noble Lords on all sides of the House commented, safety and welfare are more than protection from harm; they also concern protecting our hard-won freedoms and liberties. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, and the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, that the debate centres on striking the correct balance between individual liberties and the security of the people who live in this country. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Tonge, that we have not ratcheted up the fear of terrorism. As the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones, said, we should listen to the words of the director-general of MI5 when he described the threat faced today, which is growing in scale and complexity. He reported that, in the UK, the police and MI5 are contending with 30 plots and 200 networks comprising 2,000 individuals. We have to deal with that threat, but our response is bound by morality and law. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, that the Counter-Terrorism Bill seeks to strike that balance.
The Earl of Onslow: My Lords, Mr McNulty came to the Joint Committee on Human Rights in the summer and said that the threat had not got worse. Peter Clarke said to the same committee about three weeks ago that the threat had not got worse since 2005. What has changed to make the period of 28 days’ detention need to be increased?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, the advice that I have, and as the director-general of MI5 has said, is that we face a very severe threat and that it has worsened. Noble Lords will rightly be concerned and exercised to ensure that we have a full debate about the length of pre-charge detention. My noble friend Lord West of Spithead made it clear that the Government look for consensus on this issue. I assure noble Lords that that is the basis on which we enter those debates.
However, based on the threat that we see and have been advised exists, we believe that there is a case for going beyond the 28 days in the future. I reiterate that that would be only in exceptional circumstances where there are multiple plots, links with multiple countries or exceptional levels of complexity. It is true that there has not yet been a case where 28 days has been inadequate, but all 28 days were needed for the August airline plot. I reiterate that any increase in the limit should be balanced by strong judicial oversight and parliamentary accountability, as my noble friend Lady Goudie suggested.
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Noble Lords have made great play of the fact that the Government have not specified a number of days that they wish to see. I understand that noble Lords and Members of the other place will want to focus on the maximum figure for the extension of pre-charge detention, but that is the point about the consultation that is being embarked on. The important thing is that we consider the case as it stands and, in the light of that, consider whether there is an argument for going beyond the current limit.
The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, asked about comparisons with other countries. It is not easy to compare figures on this with other countries, as many have different systems and approaches to ours and investigations may continue long after the original charge. We have said from the outset that we want a wide-ranging discussion on pre-charge detention. As part of that we have welcomed the recent contribution made by Liberty, and we shall consider that report very carefully indeed. As for the question of resources, the budget for the security and intelligence agencies will continue its historic real-terms growth since 2001, with real growth over that period of 9.6 per cent a year.
The noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones, and my noble friend Lord Judd have referred to the cross-party review on privy counsellor terms, which is looking into the matter of intercept. I do not want to pre-empt that review, although clearly we shall need to consider its deliberations very carefully.
Control orders are an important part of the tool kit that we are considering. There are proposed legislative amendments that will impact on control orders. Those amendments will, I am sure, allow the wider debate that the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, requested.
Of course, noble Lords have been concerned about the impact that this debate and forthcoming legislation will have on the Muslim community. The powers in the legislation proposed are not aimed at a particular race or religion or any other group. They are aimed purely and simply at terrorists, whatever background or section of society they may come from. I say to the noble Lords, Lord Dholakia and Lord Patel of Bradford, that of course we believe in sharing and improving our partnership with the Muslim community and with the shared aim of combating legislation. We have a long and strong history of community relations in this country and we must not allow terrorist atrocities to undermine them. It is our goal to create an inclusive and safe society for all. We must and shall continue to work with the Muslim communities to increase their sense of inclusion. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones, that preventing radicalisation is a key issue for our “prevent” strategy.
Lord Lloyd of Berwick: My Lords, before the Minister leaves the question of 28 days’ detention, is he saying that more than 28 days would be compatible with our obligations under Article 5 of the European convention?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: Yes, my Lords, that would be my understanding. I am happy to write to the noble and learned Lord in more detail, but that is certainly the advice that I have received.
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A number of noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, raised the question of the police and the position of Sir Ian Blair. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary wrote to Mr David Davis on 6 November, making it very clear that the death of Mr Menezes was a profoundly shocking tragedy. The Metropolitan Police have rightly used the past two years to act on the reports of the Independent Police Complaints Commission and Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary to make sure that those lessons are learnt both in the Metropolitan Police area and across the country.
It is the job of responsible politicians to place events in their proper context. This tragedy occurred 15 days after 52 people were brutally murdered in the 7/7 bombings and one day after four more potential suicide bombers again threatened the lives of Londoners. The commissioner has presided over many improvements in London with a dramatic drop in crime and a roll-out of neighbourhood policing in each of the 624 wards a full two years early. My right honourable friend said that she had full confidence in the Metropolitan Police and the commissioner to continue to police London and to lead the fight against the serious and sustained terrorist threat that we continue to face. She went on to make the point that split-second decisions have to be made in life and death policing operations. We need to consider very seriously the impact of our words and the strength of our support on those who do so. My right honourable friend has said very clearly that it is her job to back those who risk their lives to protect the British people from that terrorist threat. She considers that if the commissioner were forced to resign, it would create a climate which would make it all but impossible for future commissioners to take difficult decisions over matters of the gravest importance.
I turn to the Criminal Justice and Immigration—
Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws: My Lords, will the Minister provide the figure for persons currently employed in the high-tech unit of the anti-terrorist squad to deal with the disembowelling of computers, as I call it, which is one of the time-consuming operations for the police? Certainly, I should like to be provided with that figure and I suspect that others might want it too.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I am happy to try to find that figure and make it available to my noble friend. The point that I was making was that a substantial increase in resources in the overall work to combat terrorism has been made by the Government over the past few years.
On the Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill I say to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, that we look forward to debating the issues that he raised. I do not agree with him about CPS representation in magistrates’ courts but I have no doubt that we will have very interesting discussions.
Lord Kingsland: Because it is cheaper.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, it is not a question of being cheap but of ensuring that resources are used as wisely and effectively as possible. We believe that the Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill will build public confidence in the sentencing framework.
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Noble Lords referred to the number of Criminal Justice Bills that have been passed in the last few years. My understanding is that 56 such Bills have been passed since 1997. I say to noble Lords opposite that we reckon that 68 such Bills were passed by the Conservative Government between 1990 and 1997. The point is the product of that legislation, and the fact is that legislation passed since 1997 has had a significant impact on cutting crime and protecting the public. We have seen that in the reduction by one-third since 1997 of those crimes that affect most people in this country. I have noted the comments by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Liverpool on incitement to homophobic hatred. I also noted the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, on matters relating to self-defence. I am sure that we will discuss that in future.
The prison population is at record levels, and it is presenting a considerable challenge to Her Majesty’s Prison Service. We are locking up 60 per cent more violent and dangerous offenders than a decade ago. They are being locked up for longer; average sentence length has been increased. We have to balance that by the use of tough community sentences for those who are convicted, where it is most appropriate. We await with great interest the outcome of the review by my noble friend Lord Carter of Coles. Alongside the challenge of the current prison population, we have seen a reduction in reoffending rates, and we are seeing the increasing use of community sentencing.
The noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, and the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, asked about the rehabilitation of offenders, which remains a priority for the Government. I know that the noble Lord is concerned to see the outcome of the review of the current legislation. I assure him that it is being very carefully considered. I fully understand the point that he made about the revolving door. That is why we see the key as being to limit the use of short custodial sentences by unlocking the potential of community orders.
Lord Dholakia: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. There is a consensus in this House among the Conservative Front Bench, the Liberal Democrats and Members on the independent Benches, who have in the past supported the idea of reform of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act. Why is it not possible to introduce a measure of this nature in the forthcoming criminal justice Bill? Why do we have to wait until the Government make up their mind? At the end of the day, the arguments are very simple. If you believe in rehabilitation, this is one area that will substantially help the Government in rehabilitating offenders.
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Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, the noble Lord will know that we debated this in an Oral Question about two weeks ago. I do not think that I can go any further than what I said then. He will know that we keep this matter under review, but it has to be seen in the context of the wider government programme of the rehabilitation of offenders and the programmes inside prisons. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, who talked about prisoners with mental health issues, that there has been a considerable increase in the amount of money spent on prison health services and in the amount of money spent on offender learning. Clearly, we have to continue to ensure that the emphasis is maintained in that area.
Noble Lords have expressed regret about our inability to bring forward a Bill on coroners this Session, and I understand that concern. I assure the House that the Government remain committed to reform and that the Bill has been deferred and not abandoned. We will look to see what can be done in the mean time to strengthen the coroner process.
On legal aid, for which the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, knows I am responsible, I am happy to discuss this further with him. He is right to suggest that we spend £2 billion on legal aid. It is the most generous legal aid system in the world. We want to see a rebalance of resource from criminal legal aid to civil legal aid. Reforms are necessary to ensure that the money is used as wisely as possible. It is the responsibility of the Legal Services Commission to ensure that there are no gaps in provision and I will make sure that it carries out that duty as effectively as possible
Constitutional renewal is a matter of great moment and I welcome the generally supportive comments that I think I detected in the House for the programme announced by the Government. It is significant that their approach is to break up concentrations of executive power and to abolish royal prerogative powers. I understand fully the concerns of the noble Lords, Lord Norton and Lord Maclennan. Both acknowledged the significance of the proposals on war-making powers and that of treaties. I very much agree with the noble Lord, Lord Norton, on the importance and assistance that draft Bills and pre-legislative scrutiny can bring and I agree with him on the importance of post-legislative scrutiny. We have debated these matters previously. I assure the noble Lord that the Government want to publish as many draft Bills as they can. The Government recognise their value. He asked how decisions were made—they are made within Government as part of the discussions on the legislative programme. I am advised that we will respond shortly to the Law Commission’s report on post-legislative scrutiny.
The noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, made a learned contribution. She argued for settled and known laws. As I have worked in the public sector for most of my life, I understand the challenges on practitioners there in coming to grips with legislation. I understand also the challenge that they face if legislation is constantly changed. On the other hand, we must recognise that the pace and complexity of the modern world poses real challenges for government and the need for up-to-date legislation. I accept that it is important to be sure of
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The noble Baroness, Lady Shephard, challenged me on my understanding—or, perhaps, lack of it—of the current state of play of local government restructuring. As a member of Oxford City Council many years ago, I still rue the day of the 1974 reorganisation when one of the finest county borough councils in the country was decimated to become a non-metropolitan district council. I find it hard to forgive the party opposite for what they did.
Baroness Shephard of Northwold: My Lords, I am sure that the Minister will be fair enough to accept that that was an announced intention of the Government of the day, whereas what is happening in two-tier authorities appears to be reorganisation by stealth.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, my understanding is that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government took the view that there was not a reasonable likelihood that the proposal made by Norwich City Council would meet the outcome specified by our criteria. She is minded to refer the proposal to the Boundary Commission and ask it to look at local government structures in Norfolk, with a view to it making an alternative proposal. If the Boundary Commission decides to make an alternative proposal, it must first publish and consult on a draft of that proposal and have regard to any representations made to it before submitting that alternative proposal. I would certainly hope that the people of Norfolk would have an opportunity to make their feelings known on that.
My noble friend Lord Borrie made some very interesting points, particularly about judicial appointments. We have debated that issue before. I make it absolutely clear that at this stage the Government have made no firm recommendations on parliamentary involvement. We have already made it clear that we would have serious reservations about the introduction of confirmatory hearings, which we believe could lead to politicisation and undermine judicial independence. However, it has been suggested that it might be suitable for the very senior judiciary to be asked to come before an appropriate Select Committee to talk about the administration of justice, but not in the specific context of post-approval hearings. Clearly, we will listen very carefully to views on this matter.
I understand the points raised by my noble friends Lord Morgan and Lord Judd concerning a draft Bill of Rights, but it is fair to say that we believe that nothing in the Human Rights Act has had any impact on the Government’s ability to fight crime and protect the UK from terrorist threats. We recognise that some of the difficulties faced by the Act may have stemmed from a lack of explicit balance in its expression. We said that we think there is a need to draw out explicitly the responsibilities that have always been implicit within the convention and the Act, and that is why my right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor will publish a draft Bill of rights and responsibilities, which will build on the excellent basis of the Human Rights Act. I hope that that reassures my noble friends.
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We had a very good discussion about devolution and the state of the Union. My noble friend Lord Jones felt that the Welsh Assembly had been a qualified success. The noble Lord, Lord Trimble, approved the devolution arrangement within, as he said, the sovereignty of the Westminster Parliament, and I certainly warm to that. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, fears for the Union in the light of the action of the current Scottish Executive and what he described as English resentment about the devolution settlement. I am not sure that he is right on that latter point but I agree with him on the crucial importance of the Union. I say also to the noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, that the Government believe that the Union benefits all the people of the UK. It reflects our shared history and heritage, and it supports our successful participation in a global economy. However, we think that the devolution changes have been successful. They deliver flexibility and allow the devolved Administrations and legislatures the ability to deliver distinct devolved policies but with a single Government of the UK taking a UK view on the strategic and major issues affecting the UK.
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