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Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, my noble friend will be pleased to hear that my answer to his first point, to my great relief, is clearly that there will be no referendum on gold-plating. The second issue is part of what we are looking at: not unsettling banks and their customers as we work our way through financial
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Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, is it not true that one of the deeper problems here is that European law tends to be rather general, leaving wide discretion to the judges to interpret it, whereas our lawBritish common lawtends to be as detailed as possible, leaving the judges as little discretion as possible to interpret it? Will we not in the end have to choose one of these systems, and which will it be?
Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, the noble Lord strays into dangerous territory that goes way beyond the Question. The use and application of British law is, in this case, to interpret Brussels decisions into decisions that work in our system. However, there is no doubt about the primacy today and for ever more of British law within the British Isles.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, the Minister said earlier that this is difficult because it is European. I thought the Question asked by my noble friend Lord Higgins was very simple; it was whether the Government have gold-plated the European regulations. Have they?
Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, the Question was whether that was the reason for the governor not being able to act as expeditiously as he would have wished in the Northern Rock situation. My answer is that we are looking into it, but we believe it not to be the case.
Lord Dholakia asked Her Majestys Government:
What guidance they have issued to police forces in relation to the retention of records of old criminal convictions.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord West of Spithead): My Lords, the Home Secretary issued a statutory code of practice on the management of police information in July 2005. The Association of Chief Police Officers issued detailed operational guidance in April 2006. This sets out guidance on the review, retention and disposal of police information. The National Policing Improvement Agency and forces are working to ensure compliance with the code by the agreed deadline of 2010.
Lord Dholakia: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Is he aware that the Information Commissioners Office has ordered four police forces to delete all criminal convictions from the police national computer because the information is held contrary to the principles of the Data Protection Act? Will the Minister ask Her Majestys Inspector of
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Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, has raised a couple of interesting points, and I will have to be a little expansive in my answer. At the moment we are between two systems. I say that advisedly because in the past the system really did not work at all. The Bichard inquiry looked in great detail at record creation, review, retention, deletion and so on, which is we why we have moved forward to where we are. The retention guidelines that we are now moving towards look at stepping down; in other words, not giving access to other authorities to those data rather than removing them. We used to weed data, as I am sure the noble Lord is aware. We are between those two positions.
I cannot speak on the specifics about the Information Commissioner because the four police forces are appealing against the enforcement notices and that is the subject of an information tribunal.
Baroness Hanham: My Lords, what is happening about DNA products that are taken and are held whether or not the person has been convicted? What guidance will be given to police authorities about that?
Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, the DNA data held on the police national computer will still be held for the people they relate to. Access will be confined to the police and those on a list of non-police organisations; an example of an organisation that is allowed to call on those data is the Defence Vetting Agency. Once a conviction is spent, organisations other than the police force that owns those data will no longer have access.
Baroness Hanham: My Lords, the Minister has not replied to the question. It was not about those who are convicted; it was about those who are not convicted.
Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I am not aware exactly what is the position on that. Perhaps I may write to the noble Baroness on the specifics.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, in asking my question, I pay tribute to the work of Richard Thomas, the Information Commissioner, and his office. They are doing a sterling job in highlighting some of the problems with data retention. Was the Minister saying in his reply to my noble friend Lord Dholakia that the police will retain data on people until they are 100 years old or dead? I thought that one of the eight principles of data retention is that they are held for as long as is necessary.
Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, the position is that the data will be held until the person is 100 years old, unless they are removed in an exceptional case procedure. Any person can ask what data are held on them in accordance with the Data Protection Act and can ask for their data to be removed once they are spent. They are then looked at and they may or may not be removed, depending on a police officer at chief level within that constabulary, who makes that final decision. So data are effectively held there until the person is 100 unless they are removed.
One interesting thing about the Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Dholakiait shows the value of these Questionsis that I asked people in the Home Office, How does an offender know and understand what has happened and what is the position?. I do not think that that is made clear enough to offenders; it is not made clear enough to them that there is a procedure for them to see the data and get rid of them. So I said, I am sure that we can do this, cant we?. That is being looked at at the moment. Perhaps I may get back to the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, to tell him whether we can achieve that.
Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the Bichard inquiry, which followed the terrible Soham murders, criticised the police for destroying intelligence and not sharing it with adjoining police forces? It is important that we distinguish between criminal convictions and intelligence. It is not the retention of the records that is the problem; it is how the information is used afterwards. It is important that police forces retain information for as long as necessary in the furtherance of the detection of crime.
Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that interjection. When I started looking at thisI have to admit again to my lack of knowledge until a few days ago, but I am rapidly doing a PhD course on all the things I have to talk aboutI was slightly concerned about some of the data that were held, but what was put over to me very clearly was how valuable it has been in some very unpleasant cases to be able to go back to the data. It also enables us to stop people working in certain areas, particularly with the aged, the young and the sick, where there would clearly be a risk. There have been some unfortunate examples in the past where people have done dreadful things in those areas and where, if we had known those facts, that would have helped us considerably.
Lord Grocott: My Lords, with permission, a Statement on the Security Industry Authority will be repeated later today by my noble friend Lord West. We shall take it after the three opening Front-Bench speeches on the loyal Address.
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of Tara): My Lords, unfortunately, there is an error in the fifth Motion set down on the Order Paper, covering the Merits of Statutory Instrument Committee, and I should therefore like to bring a corrected Motion before the House for consideration tomorrow. I therefore beg to move that the first four Motions standing in my name on the Order Paper; that is to say, those concerning the panel of Deputy Chairman of Committees, the House Committee, the Science and Technology Committee and the Economic Affairs Committee, be agreed to.
Moved, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, That the following Members be appointed as the panel of members to act as Deputy Chairmen of Committees for this Session:
B Anelay of St Johns,L Boston of Faversham,L Brougham and Vaux,L Colwyn,L Faulkner of Worcester,B Fookes,L Geddes,B Gibson of Market Rasen,B Gould of Potternewton,L Grocott,L Haskel,B Hooper,B McIntosh of Hudnall,B Pitkeathley,V Simon,L Tordoff,B Turner of Camden,V Ullswater.Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to supervise the general administration of the House and guide the work of the Management Board; to agree the annual Estimates, Supplementary Estimates and the three-year spending forecasts; to approve the House of Lords Annual Report; and to approve changes in employment policy;
That, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the following Members be appointed to the committee:
B Ashton of Upholland (Lord President),
L Baker of Dorking,L Brabazon of Tara, L Bradley,L Craig of Radley,B DSouza,That the committee have leave to report from time to time;
That the reports of the committee shall be printed, regardless of any adjournment of the House.
Science and Technology Committee
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider science and technology and that, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the following Members be appointed to the committee:
L Crickhowell,L Haskel,L Howie of Troon,L Krebs,L Methuen,L May of Oxford,E Northesk,L ONeill of Clackmannan,L Patel,E Selborne,L Sutherland of Houndwood (Chairman),L Taverne,L Warner;That the committee have power to appoint sub-committees and that the committee have power to appoint the chairmen of sub-committees;
That the committee have power to co-opt any Member to serve on the committee or a sub-committee;
That the committee and its sub-committees have power to appoint specialist advisers;
That the committee and its sub-committees have power to adjourn from place to place;
That the committee have leave to report from time to time;
That the reports of the committee shall be printed, regardless of any adjournment of the House;
That the evidence taken by the committee or its sub-committees in the last Session of Parliament be referred to the committee or its sub-committees;
That the evidence taken by the committee or its sub-committees shall, if the committee so wish, be published.
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider economic affairs and that, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the following Members be appointed to the Committee:
L Griffiths of Fforestfach,L Kingsdown,L Lamont of Lerwick,L Lawson of Blaby,L Layard,L Macdonald of Tradeston,That the following Members be appointed to serve on the committee until 1 April 2008:
L Skidelsky,L Wakeham;That the committee have power to appoint a sub-committee and to refer to it any of the matters within the committees terms of reference; that the committee have power to appoint the chairman of the sub-committee;
That the committee have power to co-opt any Member to serve on the sub-committee;
That the committee and its sub-committee have power to appoint specialist advisers;
That the committee and its sub-committee have power to adjourn from place to place;
That the committee have leave to report from time to time;
That the reports of the committee shall be printed, regardless of any adjournment of the House;
That the evidence taken by the committee in the last Session of Parliament be referred to the committee;
That the evidence taken by the committee or its sub-committee shall, if the committee so wish, be published.(The Chairman of Committees.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of Tara): My Lords, I beg to move the sixth Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider communications and that, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the following Members be appointed to the committee:
L Corbett of Castle Vale,B Eccles of Moulton,L Fowler (Chairman),L Hastings of Scarisbrick,B Howe of Idlicote,L Inglewood,L King of Bridgwater,Bp Manchester,B McIntosh of Hudnall,L Maxton,B Scott of Needham Market,B Thornton;That the committee have power to appoint specialist advisers;
That the committee have power to adjourn from place to place;
That the committee have leave to report from time to time;
That the reports of the committee shall be printed, regardless of any adjournment of the House;
That the evidence taken by the committee in the last Session of Parliament be referred to the committee;
That the evidence taken by the committee shall, if the committee so wish, be published.(The Chairman of Committees.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of Tara): My Lords, I beg to move the seventh Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider European Union documents and other matters relating to the European Union.
That the expression European Union documents shall include the following documents:
(i) Any proposal under the Community treaties for legislation by the Council or the Council acting jointly with the European Parliament;
(ii) Any document which is published for submission to the European Council, the Council or the European Central Bank;
(iii) Any proposal for a common strategy, a joint action or a common position under Title V (provisions on a common foreign and security policy) of the Treaty on European Union which is prepared for submission to the Council or to the European Council;
(iv) Any proposal for a common position, framework decision, decision or a convention under Title VI (provisions on police and judicial co-operation in criminal matters) of the Treaty on European Union which is prepared for submission to the Council;
(v) Any document (not falling within (ii), (iii) or (iv) above) which is published by one Union institution for or with a view to submission to another Union institution and which does not relate exclusively to consideration of any proposal for legislation;
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