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In a judgment in 1992—I shall quote only one sentence—the Court said:
“As the Court of Justice has consistently held, the Community treaties established a new legal order for the benefit of which the States have limited their sovereign rights, in ever wider fields, and the subjects of which comprise not only Member States but also their nationals”.
That quotation fairly summarises many other judgments in which the Court has developed its position. Because that is so, the Court’s interpretation of the treaties constitutes our highest national law in the field covered by them. Some of us hold that that is especially important in regard to the social protections available in this globalised world—especially for people at work. The Court of Justice already determines the meaning of the very positive side of European law—a positive side that touches on sex equality, the prohibition of discrimination, and the protection of work transfers and the like. But the legal base of European social policy is now in the balance.
In his expert book, Labour Laws and Global Trade, Professor Sir Bob Hepple recorded that after a judgment in 1999 the European Court of Justice,
between, on one side, articles establishing employers’ economic rights to freedom of movement of goods and so on and, on the other, social rights that commentators find inherent in the treaties. With one exception, it is very difficult to find texts on which to base that social dimension. The one exception is the European Charter of Fundamental Rights.
At the European level, the charter of fundamental rights, adopted at Nice, was and is regarded by most member states as binding and, as mentioned by one noble Lord earlier, as being a charter on which their nationals could no doubt rely in the common method of their legal system. This is very important because only next week the European Court of Justice will deliver two judgments which will be fundamental to this conflict between the economic rights of employers on the one side and, on the other, the so-called rights of workers’ organisations collectively to bargain and
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Two opinions are given by the Advocates-General, Maduro and Mengozzi, who offer a parallel perspective. If in fact the Court decides that the economic article of rights of freedom of establishment and freedom to offer services in any state can be restricted or interrupted by industrial action in collective bargaining, there will be a very difficult situation.
That should lead me, although I apprehend that I shall not be able to deal with it in detail, to the protocol—currently No. 7—which the United Kingdom has successfully bargained to be part of a legally binding protocol to the treaty. It is in two parts. The first states that the European Court of Justice cannot extend its jurisdiction to give the charter any legal force in the United Kingdom. The court that decides whether it is extending its jurisdiction is the European Court of Justice. The second part states that nothing in the charter is to be justiciable unless it is included in United Kingdom law. However, that second limb has the words,
On the avoidance of doubt, many writers at least raise the question of whether the European Court of Justice will be able to avoid that conclusion because “avoidance of doubt” accepts that there is a doubt. In parallel cases, which I have not time to explain in detail, the Court has used precisely that sort of argument. The case in which I think it would arise is, as another noble Lord said, one brought by a citizen of another member state.
The charter is therefore of great importance in the reform treaty and I hope that we will have further occasions to advert to the protocol. Such fundamental legal questions which test how far the treaty’s neo-liberal economic ambitions allow for social protections that intervene on them were, unhappily, not at the centre of any discussion in the IGC. They will, however, be at the centre of further juridical developments in the Court of Justice and may eventually have profound effects on whatever text is finally agreed. This House and another place will have to see how far they can influence the ratification Bill in advance of that problem. Some noble Lords have said that we can have no influence at all. That is a despairing plea which echoes a widespread feeling.
When the Government meet continuing requests, as they will, including from the grass roots of our own party, for some voice for the people on this new arrangement which deeply affects our constitution, the absence of such preparation to meet those problems on which there is now a vast literature will, I fear, have very unfortunate consequences for the Government whom I support.
8.39 pm
Lord Sheikh: My Lords, Britain's relationship with the European Union has been an issue of political tension since we joined the Common Market, as it was then known, in 1973. The reason for this is
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The latest form of this debate is the consideration of the proposed treaty of Lisbon, also known as the reform treaty. I fully support my party's proposal for a referendum on the reform treaty. There is a moral obligation for this in that the Conservative Party fought the last general election on a promise of holding a referendum on the EU constitutional treaty. Although the question of how different the EU constitutional treaty and the reform treaty are has generated a great deal of debate, I am confident that the reform treaty is largely the same as the constitutional treaty. I come to this conclusion with the support of the European Scrutiny Committee of the other place, which has described the reform treaty as “substantially” the same as the European Union constitution. Let us not forget that that committee has a Labour majority and not a Conservative one.
Beyond the moral obligation of honouring an election pledge, I believe that it is important that the public have a vote on the reform treaty because of the ever growing divide between the British electorate and European politics. One indication of that was the turnout at the European parliamentary elections in 2004, when only 39 per cent of people voted. In other words, six out of a possible 10 voters ignored that election. A public vote on the reform treaty would be a once-in-a-generation chance for our relationship with the European Union to take centre stage in public life, just as occurred in 1975 over whether we would remain part of the then Common Market. It would be a great opportunity for those opposed to surrendering further powers to Europe to make the case against to those who sincerely believe that giving extra powers to the EU institutions is in Britain's national interest.
A number of politicians hold the honourable belief that we live in a parliamentary system and that we should therefore not need to resort to referendums. The problem with this argument is that, since the 1975 referendum, referendums have become part of our political process in regard to constitutional change. There were referendums on Welsh and Scottish devolution in 1979 and 1997. Every local council has the right to call a referendum if it wishes to introduce a directly elected mayor. So while I respect those that make this argument, British constitutional practice has moved beyond it. A debate of this nature could actually be civilised, and a much greater understanding of, and engagement with, the question of Europe by the British public will occur. Of course there will be voices in the debate which prefer to criticise our views, but that is the nature of an open and robust democracy. I have more than enough confidence that voters will see
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The final question that people ask is: what would happen if Britain voted no in a referendum? Many of those in favour of the treaty suggest that there could be a doomsday scenario, where Britain would be forced by all the other countries of the European Union to face a stark choice: either ratify the treaty or leave the Union. The problem with this argument is that it is not supported by the practice of the European Union. When Denmark voted against the Maastricht Treaty in 1992, it did not lead to such a choice. Rather, it led to a further negotiation which produced the Edinburgh agreement, which gave the Danes a number of exceptions. In an irony of history, the Danish Prime Minister has promised that he will ask the Danish people to give up these exceptions in a referendum in the near future.
Not only must we trust the British people in a vote on this issue, but we must have the confidence to engage with the electorate and abide by their decision. If they vote against the treaty, the Government and politicians must deal with that and go back to our European neighbours and renegotiate. On the other hand, if the result of the referendum is to support the treaty, those who are opposed to it must acknowledge the will of the people and accept that the treaty in its current form will be ratified and move on.
In conclusion, my greatest fear is that, without a referendum, the gap between voters and politicians over Europe will only grow. It will not be good for a semi-detached electorate to have more decisions that affect their lives made in Brussels without the debate of a referendum and the endorsement of a positive vote in favour of the treaty. In the long run, no sensible person wants this disengagement to occur because it will contribute to an even wider political disengagement, undermining the legitimacy not only of the European Union and its institutions but, to some extent, politics in this country.
8.47 pm
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, everything that I wanted to say about the reform treaty has already been said eloquently, and sometimes more than once, by other noble Lords this evening; that is the problem with being the 20th on the list. So I intend to take up one or two points which the noble Baroness the Lord President of the Council raised in the eulogy of the European Union in her opening remarks.
Beforehand, however, I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Watson of Invergowrie, is not in his place. He criticised the idea of a referendum, and said that he had great forebodings about it because referendums were divisive. First, the referendum held in 1975 was a healing process for the Labour Party, not a divisive one. Without it, the Labour Party was in danger of exploding, which I know because I was a Member for it in the other place. Secondly, I believe that the noble Lord, as a good Labour man, would have been in favour of the referendum in Scotland on whether it should have its own parliament. I am sure that he
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The noble Baroness the Lord President of the Council said that this treaty will settle the institutional debate for the foreseeable future. I do not know how far ahead the foreseeable future extends, but I have been hearing that almost all my life. People say about every European treaty, “That’s it. We’ve done it now”, but then something else happens. We had the constitution, and now have this treaty, which is the same as the constitution, because of enlargement. Enlargement meant more centralisation and therefore we had to have this new treaty. But there are more enlargements to come: Turkey is to come; Kazakhstan is probably going to come; Ukraine is going to come; Bosnia is going to come. Then people will say that because of all the additions, we need another treaty and more centralisation. I take the claim that we are all right for the foreseeable future with a pinch of salt. Let us look at what Mr José Sócrates said when he was commenting on the European Union reform treaty. He said that this treaty is not the end of the story because there is no end, so I have confirmation of what I am saying from a distinguished source.
Let us look at the question of peace in Europe, raised by the noble Baroness the Lord President of the Council. Peace in Europe since 1945 has not been kept by the EC, the Common Market or the European Union; it was guaranteed by NATO and the armaments and weapons of the United States. It was nothing to do with the Common Market or the European Union. That persists today because the countries of the European Union refuse to spend sufficient on defence—and that includes this country. Let us not hear any more about the EU keeping peace in Europe. It is nonsense.
The noble Baroness also mentioned trade and boasted about the £150 billion of exports that we send to Europe every year. She failed to mention that we import £186 billion from the European Union, so we are in deficit by £36 billion a year on our balance of trade. The total accumulated deficit since we have been in is about £230 billion. She ought to take those things into account during her next eulogy.
She did not mention farming. What a disaster farming has experienced as a result of our membership. The number of people working in farming has halved. We have lost 500,000 jobs in farming and it is difficult for farmers to make a living at present. Our fishing waters have been depredated. We are throwing back edible fish, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, because of an edict from the European Union. How sensible is that? What good does that do to Britain and its economy?
What about the manufacturing industry since we have been in the EU? There was no boast about that. In 1973, 32 per cent of our economy was involved in
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Lord Watson of Richmond: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. He tells us that the British car industry has been saved by the Japanese. He will of course be aware that the Japanese have said many times that they have been able to locate manufacturing here because of our membership of the European Union.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, that is not the only reason. I do know something about the Japanese car industry. Honda has a great factory in my old constituency and it has provided many jobs. It says that it is not only a question of being near the European market—we have a big market in this country; do not forget that—but that it also values the loyalty and the skill of our people, and, if I might say so, particularly those of my former constituents in Swindon. So that is not the only reason the Japanese bring their factories to this country.
I was talking about our annual contribution to the EU budget. At present, we make a gross contribution of £12 billion, which is £5.5 billion net. By 2013, that amount will have risen to £17 billion gross, which is nearly £7 billion net. So we are paying quite a lot of money to be a member of this club.
Everybody in this House knows my view on the matter—and I think that I have just confirmed it—we should never have got into the Common Market and it would be better for this country if we now got out of the European Union.
Finally, I hope that we are going to have a proper debate on this treaty and that what is said in the House of Commons and here will have an effect. I hope also that the Government and the Opposition will have the guts to say, “We will take the Whips off”. Let Parliament really decide. If it is a Whipped vote, as I have said before, it will not be Parliament that has ratified the treaty, it will be the Government ratifying their own treaty.
I hope that we will have a great debate in the House of Commons and in this House, and that the usual channels will not try to restrict the amount of time we spend on the Bill, as did the Government of the day when the Maastricht treaty came before this House. The usual channels tried to restrict the debate to three days, but, due to the intervention of my good friend the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, we got 11 days. We had a very good informative debate and people in this House learnt a lot about the European Union and the Common Market.
8.59 pm
Lord Lea of Crondall: My Lords, I am very grateful to be able to follow the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart. He quoted Socrates. Snr Socrates is the current
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The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, also mentioned the 1975 referendum: in or out. That concentrated the mind. It was a different sort of referendum. The noble Lord has said quite openly that he wants to get out. That is not the referendum that everyone else seems to be talking about. That point should be clarified. In 1975, I had the job of writing the TUC pamphlet arguing “Vote no”. Two-thirds of our members voted yes. I remember it rather well. It was largely a compilation of statistics of billions of pounds of loss on the balance of payments, such as the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, has been reciting today. After the result came out, Jack Jones came up to me and said, “I thought I asked you to write a popular pamphlet saying, ‘Vote no’”. “I did, Jack”, I said. “Well, it wasn’t very popular, was it?”, he riposted.
Apart from saying that I thought that there was something a bit fishy about the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, about conservation of fish stocks, I had better get on with some remarks that I prepared earlier.
First, I echo the noble Lord, Lord Wedderburn, in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, on the work being undertaken in the European Committee and all of its sub-committees. One is reminded of a rather impressive picture if one lists all the sub-committees. I have now had the honour of being on three of them. Sub-Committee A deals with economic affairs and international trade, Sub-Committee B, the internal market, Sub-Committee C, foreign affairs, defence and development policy, Sub-Committee D, environment and agriculture, Sub-Committee E, law and institutions, Sub-Committee F, home affairs, and Sub-Committee G, social policy and consumer affairs. That suggests a number of important facts of life. There is a heavy agenda on each of those items, A to G, seven of them. The noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, will correct me if I am wrong, but I think that about 80 Members of the House are involved. We are second to none in that scrutiny, and I look forward to participating in my own way. I know that others will be looking forward to reading some of the results.
In supporting the treaty, which I do very strongly, I want to take a slightly longer view about public opinion in Britain—in particular, in the labour and trade union movement. I have not missed all of the debate, I have been in my room watching the television and rewriting my speech, so I have heard all of the speeches, but I do not think that public opinion has been analysed very closely.
I begin with the myth that Governments have for decades been misleading us about the path that we were being asked to go down. I have dug out from the Library the White Paper of July 1971, under Ted Heath, on the United Kingdom and European Communities. It states:
“Purposes of the communities ... These, broadly, were the origins of the Communities. Their purposes are set out in their basic documents, notably the Treaty of Rome, by which the major organisation, the EEC, was established. The preamble to the Treaty of Rome lists the basic objectives of the Community.
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your Lordships may or may not agree with that, but it is there in the White Paper—
- “the furtherance of economic and social progress by elimination of the barriers which divide Europe, improvement of the living and working conditions of its peoples, progressive abolition of restrictions on international trade and development of the prosperity of associated overseas countries. The second Article of the Treaty affirms that the task of the Community is ‘by setting up a common market and progressively approximating the economic policies of member states, to promote throughout the Community a harmonious development of economic activities, a continuous and balanced expansion, an increase in stability, an accelerated raising of the standard of living, and closer relations of the member states’. These are objectives to which this country can wholeheartedly subscribe”.
I will send all noble Lords who do not recall that quotation a copy of it, as they might find it difficult to get hold of one.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, in the 1971 White Paper, did not Mr Heath also say that there would be no loss of essential sovereignty? Does that not look a bit silly at the moment?
Lord Lea of Crondall: My Lords, that depends on what you mean by essential sovereignty. If we are going to be invaded by Martians, it might be useful to be able to meet them at the cliffs of Dover. It begs the question. None of these fancy debates gets anyone anywhere apart from going round in a circle.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, sovereignty is indivisible. You either have it or you do not: you cannot divide it out.
Lord Lea of Crondall: My Lords, with great respect, what about the treaty that set up NATO and collective defence? Do you remember Poland in 1939? It is very hard to swap history notes at this stage of the evening, but it is a ridiculous hypothesis.
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