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Earlier I promised a clarification of our attitude on referendums. I am highly sceptical of them and hope that this Parliament becomes increasingly sceptical of them. I was involved as a party official in the 1975
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In an article in the Financial Times, Phil Stephens quoted the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, saying in 1975 that,
She was right then and she is right today. Phil Stephens said in the same article that the Eurosceptics,
I certainly do not want to see us bundled out of Europe by the back door on a referendum ramp organised by the Murdoch press and the Daily Mail.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, why, if it was such a bad idea, did his party promise one in its manifesto, and why is it now reneging on that promise? The noble Lord may be right about referendums, but surely it is worse to promise the people a referendum and then to renege on it.
Lord McNally: My Lords, the whole of this debate has turned on whether that promise referred to this treaty. The noble Lord believes that it applies to this treaty while we on these Benches and the government Benches do not believe that. The noble Lord has been in politics long enough to know that sometimes, just occasionally, you can disagree with something that your party has done. I certainly believe that we are right now to take this as a matter for Parliament.
I have heard all the arguments today. I have to say to the Conservative Party—and I think that it was the noble Lord, Lord Watson, who made the point—that it should listen to the eight or so Conservative contributions and couple that with the long-term commitment to Europe that was expounded from the Conservative Front Bench. Quite frankly, it beggars belief. The Conservative Party still has to go through the rites of passage that the Labour Party went through and get this anti-Europe poison out of its system before it is fit or credible for government. The way in which the Conservative Party has presented its case today is simply not believable or credible.
We shall have a long and thorough debate about this. I hope that those who organise it will, as I understand will happen in the other place, bundle the debate to allow us to have focused discussions on things such as the Social Chapter and the legal commitment so that our deliberations do not get too
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I want to give the Lord President ample time to reply before we finish at 10 o’clock, because I know that we will return to these issues at a later stage. However, as we have been talking about our commitment, I just want to say that our European Union Committee does an extremely good job. I was once in Brussels and someone from one of the other missions said, “When there is a House of Lords Europe report out, there is a scramble from all the other missions to get it”. We look forward to the report in the new year, as it will certainly inform our debate.
As a pro-European, I start from a point in absolute contradiction to what the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, suggested. I believe that the European Community has brought peace and prosperity to Europe, which was the basis on which we fought the 1975 referendum. I liked the description by the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, of the Euro-Glums. Listening to some of them today, you would not think that we were talking about the world’s fifth largest economy enjoying its 15th year of successive economic growth. It is not quite the doom and gloom that has been preached.
More important, I remember when I was in the Foreign Office in the mid-70s when Spain, Greece and Portugal moved to democracy. There was a firm understanding that, unless they stuck to democratic principles and the rule of law, there would be no room for them in the European Community. I know for a fact that that stiffened democracy in those countries then. Anyone who goes to eastern Europe now knows that in Bulgaria, Romania and many others in the former Soviet bloc it is either the promised membership or the present membership of the EU that is underpinning the transformation to democracy in those countries.
As the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, said, we have a lot to be proud of. We will have some quite vigorous debates, but I hope that we can have them with good humour and mutual respect. I have already promised the Government our votes from these Benches, on the basis not of any short-term political calculation but of my party’s 50-year commitment to Europe.
9.42 pm
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, it has been an extremely good debate. I note with interest that I am the only woman speaking today. I hope that by the time we get to the legislation, that will not be the case. There have been some predictable speeches and some persuasive speeches: all have been extremely passionate. The prize for being succinct and to the point goes to the most reverend Primate to whom I am most grateful. I get very nervous when people wish to speak in the gap because it extends our debate, but on this occasion I was delighted that the most reverend Primate did so for very obvious reasons.
We returned to some themes that have already become very familiar to me. My particular favourite is what I call the “referendum with quotes” theme. For every quote noble Lords are able to produce in one direction, I can produce a quote in another direction. I can quote President Barroso saying on 11 October—and I say this with feeling:
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“Please read the treaty. It is not a constitution. I have been a constitutional lawyer teaching in Geneva and Washington, this is not a constitution, this is another treaty, and by the way a treaty, even as a treaty where Britain negotiated very, very clear opt-outs”.
The Dutch Council of State referred to earlier, but perhaps not given the prominence it deserves, said that,
- “the proposed Reform Treaty is substantially different from the Treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe”.
We could spend a lot of our time, and we no doubt will, discussing different points. My main point is that when we discuss the legislation, I hope that rather than trade quotes from others, we will be able to debate and deliberate on the detail of what is before us, to make sure that we all understand it precisely and can make our decisions accordingly.
Being in your Lordships’ House is a little like listening to a gramophone record. For younger viewers and listeners to the debate, I also mean using the repeat button of an iPod nano. We do, on occasion, refer to things again and again. The noble Lord, Lord Howell, referred to a piece of granite. I was thinking about the granite in my kitchen, which I regard as strong and durable. It is occasionally beautiful; I also have earrings made of granite. I do not necessarily accept that being referred to as granite is something that we should regard as detrimental.
I am still not sure that the noble Lord has answered my question, so I will pose it again. I do not expect him to intervene on me, for I am conscious of time. I pose it so that we can again discuss it when we come towards the Bill. If we believe that Parliament has the role of debating and determining our legislation, and if this Parliament in both Houses decides to support the ratification of the treaty, will the party opposite accept that ratification? That is an important question, and Europe wishes to know the answer, because it is important to be sure that those who believe in Parliament accept the will of Parliament. At some point, we must debate that. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, gave an alternative proposal for a manifesto, which the noble Lord, Lord McNally, referred to. I wait with interest to see whether that is picked up. The noble Lord may indeed be listened to by his colleagues.
The fundamental issue that I failed to understand in our debates—noble Lords will have to forgive me for this—is how, if over four years we have moved from 15 member states to 27, the processes and practices that were applicable to the 15 can possibly be applicable to the 27. Noble Lords on all sides of the House will no doubt be critical of the bureaucracy of Brussels. I spent two and a half years on the Justice Council, where I met many eminent and distinguished people across the European Union, including Ministers, officials and members of the Commission. It was as blindingly obvious to me that we could make things more efficient as it was to them. This is part of that process. We should not take away the need—which is important whatever stance noble Lords wish to take on Europe—to make sure that it runs as efficiently as possible; except perhaps for those noble Lords who would wish us out of the process altogether.
It is important that we look at this in the context of what we are seeking to achieve. I say to the noble
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If there is word across Whitehall on what to do, it has missed me on the way. I cannot add anything to that. Indeed, I have met Mr Stelzer, and I disagree with his analysis both of what is happening in Europe and of my right honourable friend the Prime Minister. I will not give him any further publicity, but I have invited him to lunch.
I agree completely with the noble Lord, Lord McNally, in his admiration of the work of the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, and of the committee and sub-committees referred to by my noble friend Lord Lea. It is an extraordinary piece of work that is done constantly, and not only for your Lordships’ House. I have heard the same thing as the noble Lord, Lord McNally, when going into Europe, about how much people look forward to the reports from the Select Committees. Noble Lords will know that I am very keen to enhance that and make sure that whatever happens in your Lordships’ House we do not lose the work of the Select Committees, which is very important. I am extremely grateful that the noble Lord will play an invaluable role in the work that we do in the future.
The noble Lord, Lord Waddington, asked about the purpose of the debate. I offered the debate in the Statement that I gave; it was as simple as that. Noble Lords responded that they would like to have the debate, and so here we are. The noble Lord said that he would let off steam, and I believe he did so in his contribution. I hope that he now feels better, but no doubt he will wish to do so again. I was interested in the noble Lord’s reference to the proposition on the ballot paper in 1975. I am wondering how one would frame the proposition that noble Lords have discussed so widely in the context of a referendum. There were several propositions underlying what was discussed, from what you might describe as an in-out proposition to variations and gradations of what would be sought. I am glad that the noble Lord did not suggest leaving what he referred to as “the club”. We believe that we have an amending treaty. It is not the same as the constitution.
Several noble Lords referred to the role of national parliaments. I am very heartened that within the propositions before us there is an enhanced role for national parliaments. Whether noble Lords like yellow cards or orange cards, it is an important new role which I hope we will be able to debate at greater length when we discuss the legislation. My noble friend Lord Tomlinson noted the importance of this change. I agree with him. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe of Aberavon, made the same point. I do not believe the interpretation put on this by the noble Lord, Lord Blackwell. We will debate it at greater length, but it is important that in all our deliberations, whether we accept this enhanced role at face value, we are careful to make sure that our
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Noble Lords referred to the Charter of Fundamental Rights, particularly the noble Lords, Lord Howell, Lord Waddington and Lord Blackwell, who did so in a perhaps less positive way than my noble friends did in the context of a social Europe. We have to be clear that the charter creates no new enforceable rights. The European Court of Justice is an institution that we will debate at greater length during the passage of the legislation and the ratification process, thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, and other noble Lords. It is important to know that it will continue to take account of the charter. It is binding on EU institutions and on member states when they implement European Union law, but the charter protocol guarantees that the charter does not create any greater rights than already apply in EU law. That is the view of the Government, of the Commission and of the legal advice within Europe. So we are confident that we are where we should be in terms of that process.
The president of the European Council was discussed by a number of noble Lords, particularly by the noble Lords, Lord Howell and Lord Waddington. The president will be chosen under the proposal and be responsible to elected national Prime Ministers. Whoever this person is, the president will not be superior to national Prime Ministers. As noble Lords know, the European Council already has a president in the shape of the Minister at the head of the Government of the country that holds the rotating presidency. That applies to all Ministers who work within the EU. Thus, when we held the presidency, the Justice and Home Affairs Council was chaired by British Ministers. I had the privilege of doing so. A six-month rotating presidency is extremely difficult. Put simply, just when you think that you have got to grips with how to do it, the presidency moves on. Consideration of having someone who will perform the function for two and a half years, subject to the will of national Prime Ministers, is an important change. It will be more efficient and cheaper. That is an important aspect which has been raised a number of times by noble Lords, not least by the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, in considering money issues.
The noble Lord, Lord Waddington, talked about the double-hatting of the president of the European Council and the president of the Commission. It is fair to say that under Article 213 of the treaty of the European Communities the president of the Commission is excluded from holding another post. It states:
“The members of the commission shall not, during their term of office, engage in any other occupation”.
Open Europe was the first to raise this issue. The Commission has certainly not raised it with us.
The noble Lord, Lord Williamson of Horton, on whose head many have heaped praise for his work, was the first noble Lord who referred to the other aspects of discussion in the European Council. I am
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“The Government will recommend that there is sufficient time for debate on the Floor of the House so that the Bill is examined in the fullest of detail and all points of view can be heard”.—[Official Report, Commons, 22/10/07; col. 23.]
He said that, once the Bill is approved, the treaty will be ratified. I will discuss the process. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, knows that I dare not tread on to the Chief Whip’s territory, but it is important that we have full debates, and that is certainly the Government’s ambition in relation to this matter.
I agreed very much with the stance taken by the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, over sovereignty. He referred to the importance of understanding the profound sovereignty of nations and said that the enhanced role of Parliaments was an important aspect of that—a point that I have already mentioned. I agree very much with, and am grateful to him for, the analysis that he put forward.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe of Aberavon, with whom I agreed almost completely, gave the tour de force of the evening. He touched on a whole range of issues going back to 1950, when he first started to discuss these questions, through to the role of the European Union and, in particular, its relationship with other nations. The noble and learned Lord was the first in the debate to raise the question of our relationship with Russia. He also used the word “partnership” extensively. I very much echo his sentiments on that. My experience of working in Europe as a Minister was certainly that the partnership that one developed with other member states in thinking through difficult and important issues was critical. Thinking about how we operate in the world when working with our colleagues in the other 26 nations is very important. However, I say to the noble and learned Lord that he should not underestimate the beguiling nature of my right honourable friend the Prime Minister; I never do.
The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, was concerned that more power should be given to Parliament and the people. He referred to the gracious Speech and questioned whether we had already begun to erode that power. The truth is that my right honourable friend has already done a huge amount to reach out beyond our party to discuss with other parties and none all kinds of issues concerning our constitution and the work that is going on, whether in counterterrorism or party funding. I hope that the noble Lord will urge his friends, both here and in another place, to work closely with us in areas where we need to build as great a consensus as possible. I loved the idea that it is pantomime season. I cannot tell noble Lords how much fun I had sitting here working out who would be wearing which costumes.
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True to form, the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, put forward his proposition in a very straightforward manner. I do not agree with him any more than I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart; none the less, the noble Lord knows I have huge respect for him. He was particularly concerned about fishing quotas and whether that issue would be raised by my honourable friend Jonathan Shaw, the Minister responsible. Noble Lords may recall my honourable friend appearing on the “Today” programme recently, when he spoke of his concern about what is brought in in the catch and the ensuing waste. The issue of total allowable catches—the quota, as I believe it is called—will be discussed at the Council. We will be pressing for the best possible deal for a sustainable fishing industry in the UK and will be looking at the scientific evidence, so I think that the noble Lord can be reassured that the matter will be raised. If he shakes his head because he is not reassured, perhaps I may reassure him further by saying that I shall endeavour to find out what happens and shall ensure that he is informed.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, my concern is the throwing back of 5 million tonnes of dead fish into the sea every year. Why do we not eat them?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, I have tried to answer the noble Lord as best as I can. It is better that I leave it for my honourable friend to discuss that directly with the noble Lord, as he is involved in the matter directly.
The question of whether individual nations choose to continue with symbols is for those nations: it is called sovereignty. If a country, as a member of the European Union, wishes to run up the flag of the European Union, so be it. If it wishes to change its anthem, so be it. That is entirely up to individual nations and is nothing to do with this treaty; it is to do with national sovereignty.
I had a sense of the line from the Monty Python film, “What have the Romans ever done for us?”, and was tempted to leap in from time to time with a list. The noble Lord referred to one light. I think that there are a number of lights in our relationships across the globe, and I believe that our relationship with the European Union is very important.
I am not quite old enough to remember “The Glums”, although I often hear my older brother talk about it. I am looking at the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, but I am thinking of my noble friend Lord Harrison, who is sitting behind me. I did not want to turn round because I would have moved away from the microphone, but I am very grateful for his congratulations on the red lines. Noble Lords will know what the red lines are. I do not intend at this late hour to go through them again, but they are very important and we must discuss them in detail when we look at the ratification process. The red line on justice and home affairs is particularly important. I myself was responsible for not opting in to three measures within civil and family justice. It is very important to look at the question of what happens after five years. The opt-in and opt-out process is going to be extremely valuable to the UK, but within the context of co-operation in justice and home affairs.
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