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This schedule confuses biological genetic parenthood and legal social parenthood. There is a risk of creating a legal and social quagmire of adult claims and counterclaims over the children’s status. It would mark a shift in the function and purpose of birth certificates. Instead of providing for all time permanent and available information about biological parentage, birth certificates would be used to assign legal and financial responsibility to non-related individuals. The door was opened to this by the 1990 Act, but the full consequences were not foreseen. The child might not even know which of the two mothers bore him.
Civil partnerships differ legislatively from marriages in a number of respects. There is no reason to suppose that civil partnerships were intended to create a new procreated unit. One should note that dignity and titles of honour are exempted from the new provisions on registering two people of the same sex on a birth certificate. That must mean that there is some notion that truth is important. If it is important for titles of honour and dignity, then it is important for everyone else. Birth certificates are about origins, not statements of adult commitment, which should be made elsewhere. I beg to move.
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of Tara): I should point out that if the amendment is agreed to, I cannot call Amendments Nos. 68A or 68B.
Baroness Barker: I shall speak to Amendment No. 68A, which I tabled in part because, as was the case with our discussion on Monday about birth certificates, I felt that there was a need for clarity. I have to say that the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, has reinforced that.
I want to make a point of information. There can only ever be one mother registered on a birth certificate—
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Birth certificates are about the relationships of the adults to children. They are not a way of recording the relationships of the adults to each other; that is what other forms of certification have always been for, whether marriage certificates, civil partnership certificates or divorce certificates. Birth certificates are about registering the relationship of the parents to the children.
On Monday, the noble Viscount, Lord Craigavon, helpfully pointed us back to another bit of truth. A longitudinal and international study by Liverpool John Moores University suggested that, were the population to be tested—and before eyes on the government Front Bench light up, I am not suggesting for a moment that it should be—somewhere between 10 per cent and 25 per cent of people would turn out to have a genetic father who is different from the person we consider to be our father. Why? It is partly because people have lied on birth certificates ever since birth certificates have been around. People have chosen either not to register information or they have at times put down false information. Why? It is for all the reasons that people exist. I suspect that when people chose to do it, they did it for one outstanding reason: they thought it was in the best interests of the child. In any type of relationship, truth can sometimes be very difficult to live with.
In the many debates that we have had in your Lordships’ House about matters such as civil partnerships and the adoption Bill, I have always found it strange that the people who seem to attract the greatest condemnation are gay people who choose to submit themselves to close examination of their personal lives. They are seeking to do only one thing—to have their commitment to one another, and their attempts to build secure and strong families, legally recognised.
I take issue with the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, only on the suggestion that those of us who take a different view from her seek to put the needs of adults above those of children. We do not. Many of us believe that it is in the best interests of children that they are born into and live in secure and loving families and that those families, however they are made up, are recognised. Three times now in our discussions the noble Baroness has juxtaposed relationships of very different types—polygamous, underage and incestuous relationships, all of which are illegal for reasons of duress or consanguinity—with gay relationships, which are none of those things and are legally recognised. It is unhelpful that she continues to do so.
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The noble Baroness talked about the measures setting up a quagmire. I do not believe that they do. I consider that they bring clarity for these families, who have existed for a long time. Some of us heard the very moving speech in which the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh of Haringey, set out for noble Lords who might otherwise not be aware that there have always been gay couples who have felt the same compulsion and need to have children that exists in the rest of the population. They have always had to act in hidden and informal ways and they have often been blighted by a lack of legal recognition. I know a person who has, over many years, brought up the child of her partner, who died. She was reliant on the good will of officials to turn a blind eye at many turns in that child’s life in order to continue giving him the loving and stable relationship that he needed.
I tabled my amendment because I believe that it represents a truth about modern life. I ask noble Lords who share the views of the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, this question. Are they going to follow the logic of it and repeal the Civil Partnership Act and overturn the sexual orientation regulations, which are the laws under which gay people have an equal right to receive the same public services as the rest of us? That would be the consequence of the amendment.
I believe that this is a matter of truth but, more than anything else, I believe that it is a test of whether this House can demonstrate that it understands and keeps pace with the way in which modern life is changing, and changing for the better.
The Lord Bishop of Winchester: It certainly did not seem to me that the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, justified what has just been said about them by the noble Baroness, Lady Barker. Even for someone who has significant reservations about some of the measures that she has just described, it is amply possible to recognise that they are the law and that they are not threatened by the things that the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, said.
I am grateful for what the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, said. I want to make five observations and then return to one thing that she mentioned early in her speech. The first point where it seems to me that she is right and where I disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, concerns the question of birth certificates. Given a choice between disagreeing with what is a fiction in relation to the child and the question of the current adult relationship, it seems to me that we must follow the proposal to remove these paragraphs from the Bill and not create a fiction about the child. I believe that the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, is right in saying that that is what a birth certificate fundamentally relates to.
Secondly, although I do not want to get into this in any detail, some of us raised this point some years ago during the passage of the Gender Recognition Bill. It seemed to some of us that serious things were being done to the integrity of birth certificates. I do not reopen the question—we lost that argument—but it is something that this House would be wise not to get into the habit of doing, because these are very important documents.
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Thirdly, I want to question something that the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, said. I was very surprised when I thought I heard her say that disguising facts was not a moral issue. I should have thought that it was an intensely moral issue, particularly as, throughout her speech, she talked about truth, which I welcomed.
Fourthly, I was unable to be here on Monday, although I have read the debate in Hansard. However, had I been here, I should have wanted to note that, notwithstanding the legal definitions of “parent”, which at one point were carefully drawn out in relation to both English and Scottish law, I did not notice anyone saying that there is a still more fundamental question. My understanding of the word “parent” is that it means a progenitor. It means a mother or a father in the strictest physical sense, whether by donation or whatever. It means, in the genetic sense, a mother or father. Although I recognise the interests of this Bill, I am very troubled by what I see as an untruthful widening of the meaning of “parent”.
That leads me to a fifth point. It may seem abstruse but, like the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, I think that it is a fundamental and legitimate point to mention. My profound concern is that, as I understand it, the Government will apply the Whip to the Bill in both this House and the other place. This is one of the many points in the Bill where there seem to be legitimate questions relating to doing things to “truth”. It is a very regrettable point at which Members of this House and the other place may be Whipped rather than having a free vote.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I take exception to being told that if this is a government Bill and members of my party, to which I am proud to belong, are expected to support it, in some sense they are deforming truth. I find that an unfortunate way of suggesting that those who believe in a government measure based on wide consultation followed by draft and pre-scrutiny legislation—a measure that some individuals take issue with, although I certainly do not suggest that they do so in bad faith—are themselves acting in bad faith and deforming truth.
The Lord Bishop of Winchester: I do not believe that that is the implication at all. I think it is a failure on the part of the Government who make the decision about imposing Whips. Once that decision is made, a range of loyalties come into play. I certainly do not impugn the faith of those who then follow that Whip but I think that it is questionable to apply it. Perhaps I may continue with my sixth point—
Lord Alton of Liverpool: I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate for giving way. Before he leaves that point, I should like to concur with what he has just said. The Science and Technology Committee and, I believe, the Joint Committee said that there were clear questions of conscience here and that this might well be territory in which free votes should be permitted. Certainly, that is precisely what happened in another place with the 1990 legislation. When we debated it there, there were free votes on these questions. I think that it would be a shame if these votes were Whipped
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Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: Perhaps I may say one thing. As my noble friend Lady Hollis pointed out, this is a government Bill, and there has been very wide consultation on it. It is therefore Whipped, apart from any vote which may occur on the subject of abortion. However, because it involves clearly moral and sometimes very difficult issues, if individuals have a problem in relation to any part of the Bill, the government Chief Whip will look on that very kindly. Therefore, one must not think of this as a draconian Whip. This is government business and so we have a Whip. If, however, individual noble Lords have a problem, it is possible for them not to be here or whatever.
The Lord Bishop of Winchester: I am very grateful to the Minister. Although I was not regretting it already, that discussion makes me regret still less having raised the question.
My last point is rather more delicate but I believe it is worth raising in the Committee the issue of where truth lies and, more widely, the issue of conscience. At an early point in her speech, the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, spoke about entries in forms and, if I heard her correctly, perhaps a need to change the names on the columns of birth certificates. The Committee should understand that the result of the civil partnership legislation, which I accept is the law, is that way down the line significant numbers of parish clergy—and among the parish clergy there are some who are by no means happy about the civil partnership legislation—will find themselves thinking that they are bound to collude with it in filling in the new forms sent out by the registrar-general for registering marriages. There are serious question of conscience there. There have been questions of conscience for those who are employed as civil registrars. I foresee some difficulties in offices in various parts of government at the point at which a fiction enters into birth certificates if these provisions are passed. Those are among my further reasons for thinking that the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, and others are on to something very significant in their opposition to these—
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I am sorry to intervene—perhaps I am not really very sorry, but I ought to apologise and say how grateful I am to the right reverend Prelate for letting me intervene on him yet again. I cannot accept his reading of abuse of conscience in terms of civil registrars. I understand that in terms of clergy—certainly for a non-state church, although one could argue about the responsibilities of a state church—but where secular, appointed officials hold down a job under parliamentary writ and authority, their conscience in good faith is to all of the ramifications of that job as laid down by law. They may not pick and choose to decide that they will or will not, for example, register somebody who is black or yellow or brown or too small or too large or gay. That is part of the responsibility that comes with holding office by law established.
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The Lord Bishop of Winchester: I remember that discussion during the passage of the previous legislation, and I respect the noble Baroness’s convictions and their power in law. I do not regret that I and others raised that question because there are people who, having taken office in good faith before the law was changed, have found themselves in real difficulty.
The other thing I would say—we certainly shall not go into this in this debate—is that the term “a state church” is difficult in relation to the Church of England. I am sure the noble Baroness would not push that too far.
Baroness Barker: I did not understand the point the right reverend Prelate was making. My understanding is that civil partnerships cannot be registered by the church and that the one place that it is not possible to have a civil partnership registered is in a religious building. I would appreciate clarification of the problem.
The Lord Bishop of Winchester: The point is that it is part of the responsibilities of a cleric preparing to solemnise a marriage under the Civil Partnership Act to ascertain not only whether a person has been married before but whether they have been in a civil partnership or rather whether they are in a civil partnership. At that point, certain clerics find themselves, as they would see it, asked to officiate in something by taking notes and filling in forms about which they are significantly uncertain. That is the point at issue. They are bound to ask that question.
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Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: We are discussing Amendments Nos. 68, 69 and 70, which were tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, and the noble Lord, Lord Alton. Since December 2005, same sex couples have been able to have their relationships legally recognised. From that time, couples registering as civil partners have had the same rights and responsibilities as married couples in most areas of their lives, including the ability to apply for a parental responsibility order for a partner’s child.
However, while the Civil Partnership Act provided for the acquisition of parental responsibility, it did not provide for civil partners to be joint legal parents following assisted conception with donor sperm, for both partners to be legal parents of that child or for that fact to be recorded on birth certificates. The Bill allows that same-sex couples, whether in a civil partnership or being treated together, can both be legal parents of a child born through assisted conception. For these provisions to be fully legally recognised, the Bill includes amendments to other Acts to allow birth certificates under UK, Scottish and Northern Irish law to record that.
I understand that some see as a fallacy recording on a birth certificate that a child has a mother and a second parent who happens to be female. However, I must point out that a child born to a married couple by the use of donor sperm has recorded on his birth certificate that the husband is his father, although he is in fact not his biological father. Currently, if a same-sex female couple have a child as a result of
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The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, is correct to say that there is only ever one mother on a birth certificate and there can never be confusion about who is the mother. The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, referred to my right honourable friend John Hutton, who said that we want more fathers on birth certificates. There is no question that where a father is legally responsible for a child we want his name on the birth certificate. We want more fathers, but in that case the mother and the father are legally responsible for the child. In the cases that we are discussing in this Bill the mother and another parent are the two people responsible for the child. Legal rights and responsibilities flow from the names cited as parents on the birth certificate. Those rights and responsibilities are in best interests of the child.
Amendment No. 68A, which was tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Barker and Lady Warnock, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, seeks to ensure that birth certificates include information about mother and parent, rather than, in essence, two mothers. This amendment is not necessary as it is already the Government’s intention. The Department of Health has already been in discussions with the Office for National Statistics, and that is how the information will be recorded on birth certificates. I ask the noble Baroness not to press her amendment.
Baroness Deech: I think there is still confusion about the purpose of a birth certificate. It is not to legitimise or recognise in any way the union of the two adults who are on it, and it should not be used in that way. My point about polygamous and incestuous marriages not being allowed is that if a child is born of such a union no doubt the names of the two parents are on the birth certificate and that is all that it means: the child’s origins. It does not seem to me to be in the interests of the child—and that is what we are talking about—to list two people on a birth certificate, which that child will carry for the rest of his life and will have to produce all over the world, who are plainly not both his genetic parents. I know that there has been a breach in the normal rule in that children born by donor conception to wives and husbands where the husband is not the father can have the husband listed. We are now moving forward into a yet more technologically adventurous world, and it may be that in retrospect more should have been said for truth, albeit that it can be inconvenient. If your Lordships were not minded to support birth certificates that show clearly that donor conception had taken place, it is illogical to want birth certificates that name two women or two men as parents. Certificates are used for all purposes and in an increasingly globalised world will be used all over the world as proof of this and that. We should be focusing on the child’s origins, not the situation of the parents.
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There are still some differences in English law between the various unions. That is not to stigmatise any; there are simply a variety of unions, recognised and certificated in various ways. However, the birth certificate is something else again, so I am simply making a plea for historical truth for future generations. If the names of two women, or two men, are on the birth certificate the child would be extremely confused, and news would be broken to it far earlier than the mother might have intended. That is what I mean to say.
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