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On Question, Motion agreed to.
Select Committees
3.17 pm
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of Tara): My Lords, I beg to move the second Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That Baroness Royall of Blaisdon be appointed a member of the following committees, in place of Lord Grocott: Administration and Works, Privileges, Procedure and Selection.—(The Chairman of Committees.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Passenger and Goods Vehicles (Recording Equipment) (Downloading and Retention of Data) Regulations 2008
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That the draft regulations laid before the House on 28 November 2007 be approved. 4th Report from the Statutory Instruments Committee, Considered in Grand Committee on 22 January.—(Lord Bassam of Brighton.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (Regulated Activities) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2007
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 13 December 2007 be approved. 6th Report from the Statutory Instruments Committee, Considered in Grand Committee on 22 January.—(Lord Davies of Oldham.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
28 Jan 2008 : Column 448
Northern Ireland Arms Decommissioning Act 1997 (Amnesty Period) Order 2008
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 4 December 2007 be approved. 6th Report from the Statutory Instruments Committee, Considered in Grand Committee on 22 January.—(Lord Rooker.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill [HL]
3.19 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now further considered on Report.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
Clause 14 [Conditions of licences for treatment]:
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff moved Amendment No. 111A:
“( ) For the purposes of this Part the term “a supportive parent” means a parent who is willing and able to make a long term commitment to safeguard the child’s health, development and welfare and provide, in a manner appropriate to the age and development of the child, direction and guidance.”
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I apologise to the House on behalf of my noble friend Lord Northbourne, who unfortunately is detained today. This amendment stands in my name, his name and the name of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. There have been previous debates on the need to define what supportive parents do rather than, as is currently the situation, simply what parents do not do, so we felt that this amendment would be an important addition to the legislation. At previous stages, this amendment and the idea of defining supportive parenting had a great deal of support. Indeed, at the close of proceedings on the previous day of Report, the Minister gave an assurance in relation to this amendment. I hope that today he will be able to confirm that I and my noble friends are correct in our understanding that the wording of this amendment, which reflects the wording in the letter sent round by the Minister, will be incorporated into the code of practice that goes with this Bill. On 21 January, the Minister said that the Government,
- “in guidance produced by the HFEA—in its code of practice, which is subject to approval by the Secretary of State”.—[Official Report, 21/1/08; col. 55.]
I hope that today the Minister will be able to confirm that the Secretary of State intends to include in the code of practice the definition with the wording as laid out. If that is the case, we will be delighted and will not need to press for anything to go in the Bill. I beg to move.
28 Jan 2008 : Column 449
Baroness Howarth of Breckland: My Lords, in his reply could the Minister also explain how the assessment will be made, and who will make it, that the family will be supportive and watch the child’s development for its life? In an adoption hearing that kind of assessment is made, but when a family goes for treatment for fertilisation it is unusual for that depth of assessment to be made, so I would be interested to know how the Minister sees this operating in practice.
Lord Winston: My Lords, it might also be helpful if the Minister could tell us whether this kind of assessment will apply to those infertile couples receiving not only in vitro fertilisation but other treatments for infertility.
Lord Harries of Pentregarth: My Lords, perhaps while we are in the business of further clarification we could have an assurance that supportive parenting, spelt out in the terms of this amendment, is to be looked at against the background of risk assessment. When the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority looks at the welfare of the child, it will be looking at whether there is in some way a significant risk that it has to examine; it will pursue the issue further only if there is sufficient risk. I have had one or two e-mails from people involved with this work who are concerned that this supportive parenting amendment will put an extra burden on clinics if it is not seen against the background of proper risk assessment.
Lord Darzi of Denham: My Lords, we have discussed the welfare of the child at length on previous occasions. It might be helpful, however, if I reiterate some of the important points about the need for supportive parenting. I am sure that everyone accepts the importance of supportive parenting in the context of the child’s welfare. I also recognise that, for many noble Lords, how supportive parenting is defined is a key issue. We consider that a supportive parent would be willing and able to make a long-term commitment to safeguard and promote the child’s health, development and welfare and, in a manner appropriate to the age and development of the child, to provide direction and guidance. This definition is as suggested in the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss.
As I made clear in our earlier discussion, our opinion is that an Act about fertilisation and embryology is not the appropriate place to have specific statements or definitions about parenting, as it would need to have relevance to parenting generally and not just in this specific context. We fully recognise the importance of knowing the meaning of the term, particularly for clinicians who carry out the assessments. Therefore, we believe that it would be appropriate to have the explanation of this term in the guidance produced by the HFEA, which is in its code of practice and is subject to approval by the Secretary of State.
The Bill makes it a statutory requirement for the HFEA to produce guidance on the need for supportive parenting in the context of the welfare of the child. People embarking on assisted reproduction are fully committed to having a child, having given it a great deal of thought, and, in general, it would be expected
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Lord Elton: My Lords, the Minister said in his opening paragraph, quite understandably, that it would not be appropriate to put the amendment into this Bill because it would apply to only a narrow spectrum of adoptive parents. Do we take it, therefore, that when an appropriate instrument or Bill comes through, the Government will take the opportunity to put this provision in legislation, or will it be only in guidance that affects this group of parents?
Lord Darzi of Denham: My Lords, the noble Lord makes an important point. I shall seek legal opinion on the best place in which to fit this provision, if such an opportunity arises in future.
Lord Neill of Bladen: My Lords, am I right in understanding that “long term commitment” means that the minimum period would be the entire period while the child remains a child? Most parents find that they have a commitment well beyond that point, but would that be the minimum that would be understood by “long term commitment”?
Lord Darzi of Denham: My Lords, logic tells me that it would be throughout the child’s development, until the child becomes an adult.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for his answer and for reiterating what was said last time we debated the Bill. He has given us the assurance that we sought that this will go into the code of practice as approved by the Secretary of State. Therefore, with pleasure, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 112 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.]
[Amendment No. 112A not moved.]
Lord Darzi of Denham moved Amendment No. 113:
Clause 14, page 10, line 42, leave out “of training persons in the testing of embryos” and insert “mentioned in paragraph 1(1)(ca) of Schedule 2 (training in embryological techniques)”
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 15 [Conditions of storage licences]:
Lord Darzi of Denham moved Amendments Nos. 114 to 118:
28 Jan 2008 : Column 451
Clause 15, page 11, line 34, leave out “an inter-species embryo” and insert “a human admixed embryo”
On Question, amendments agreed to.
[Amendment No. 119 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.]
Lord Darzi of Denham moved Amendment No. 120:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 17 [The person responsible]:
Lord Darzi of Denham moved Amendments Nos. 121 and 122:
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Clause 19 [Procedure for refusal, variation or revocation of licence]:
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon moved Amendment No. 123:
The noble Baroness said: Amendment No. 123 relates, together with Amendment No. 138, to licensing procedures. New Section 19B(1) provides that the HFEA may make directions concerning the form and content of applications under the 1990 Act and the information to be supplied with the application. New Section 19B(2) provides for a regulation-making power in relation to applications for the determination of licences under the Act. The power in the Bill as drafted was to be exercised by the HFEA. New Section 19B(3) provides details of what the regulations may provide; in particular, they may set out procedure in relation to the determination of licences, including requirements for people to give evidence or produce documents, and the admissibility of such evidence.
The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee’s report stated, in relation to the procedure for a refusal and reconsideration for licences:
“We consider the powers to be appropriately delegated save that the power at clause 19B(3), to require persons (not just the applicant) to give evidence or to produce documents, should be exercised by the Secretary of State and subject to the negative procedure”.
The Government have accepted this recommendation and have tabled these amendments to change the regulation-making power so that it is exercisable by the Secretary of State, not the HFEA. This power is appropriately a matter for regulations, as it will add to the procedure required by new Section 19, rather than
28 Jan 2008 : Column 452
On Question, amendment agreed to.
3.30 pm
Lord Darzi of Denham moved Amendments Nos. 124 and 125:
On Question, amendments agreed to.
[Amendment No. 126 not moved.]
Lord Darzi of Denham moved Amendment No. 127:
[Amendment No. 127A, as an amendment to Amendment No. 127, not moved.]
On Question, Amendment No. 127 agreed to.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon had given notice of her intention to move Amendment No. 128:
(a) the giving of a suitable opportunity to receive proper counselling, and(b) the provision of such relevant information as is proper,in accordance with any condition that is by virtue of section 13(6) or (6A) a condition of a licence under paragraph 1 of Schedule 2.””The noble Baroness said: My Lords, we have already debated government Amendment No. 128. At the time, further to the discussion, we agreed that we would take it back and come back with an alternative amendment. Therefore, I am proposing to take away this amendment, rather than move it formally, and come back with a replacement.
[Amendment No. 128 not moved.]
[Amendments Nos. 129 and 130 not moved.]
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