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It is not my intention to repeat the arguments that have been put forward. In fact, in debate after debate there is a general consensus about the purpose of sentencing and so on, and I do not need to repeat that. I can well understand why the Government wish to promote the principal aim of the youth justice system when dealing with offenders up to the age of 18. The questions that I am always asking is, “Do we have the right approach? Should it be restricted to 18? Would the raising of the age from 18 to 21—which the noble Lord rightly put in the amendment for detention centres—actually help to reduce offending and reoffending rates?”. I have no doubt whatever that in the final analysis that is probably the reason that they would do so.
I sat as a magistrate in Sussex—the county that the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, comes from—for a very long time. When you are sitting in the court, it is very difficult to distinguish particularly in relation to the age factor and sentencing. I say that because some youngsters aged 12, 13 or 14 are much more mature than some people aged 21. Is that factor important? Or should you not effectively be looking at what is most appropriate for the individual before you? That is fundamental to the amendment.
In various amendments to Clause 9, a number of noble Lords tried to establish a balance; but the balance that we are lacking at the moment is
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There are obvious benefits, which include—this is the suggestion that the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, has spoken about previously—a single-site population of under-18s, small, flexible units, young people being located close to their home community and safe environments that better meet the needs of young people. It is equally important that such provision should apply to people who are under 21 years of age; but until the 10-year plan comes into force, we need to explore how best to provide suitable accommodation and premises where appropriate care and support are provided by the appropriate agencies. This requires amendment to the Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000, Section 27(1) of the Criminal Justice Act 1984 and Section 43(2) of the Prisons Act 1952. We further propose revisiting Section 106 of the Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000. To avoid further technicality, we have identified suitable words to substitute that section and other relevant sections in previous legislation. I have not set out to criticise the work of the Youth Justice Board. In previous debates, I have always complimented the considerable strides we have made since the establishment of the YJB. If its success is to be carried forward, if the intervention is to reduce reoffending—and offending—then it is right that we should be able to fish out the Government’s intention.
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I need to exercise some care as one or two issues cause me concern. There are some limitations, and that is why I say this should be probed deeply. First, should we limit the provision of accommodation by local authorities for those up to 21 years old? If that is the question, then we need to talk about capacity, as well as the differing needs of the sentence group, which can vary from between 10 and 21. Secondly, we need to take into account that we have in secure accommodation the most damaged children and their needs ought to be carefully examined. Any change in the age range would need to be carefully planned and properly resourced. It may also require parallel arrangements for the management of those young people in the community and in the court, for example where the respective roles of youth offending teams and probation need to change.
For these reasons, it would be helpful to have some indication of not only the Government’s thinking but also what they have in mind. Then we will likely see some results in terms of the age factors, the special needs they have, and how we could adequately meet that.
Lord Ramsbotham: In rising to speak to my Amendment No. 119 and also warmly to support the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Judd, I have to declare a certain sense of déjà vu. About three weeks
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I do not dissent in any way from what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Judd. I am glad he brought those points out. I have a number of points to make in support of that, really based on my frustration during my five and a half years as chief inspector in trying to persuade the system to listen to what was actually happening, and to put people in charge who were responsible, accountable and making it happen. I will go on repeating that none of these systems will work unless those people are there. It is absurd that in the Prison Service there is no one responsible for children and no one responsible for the young offenders. There are planners, yes, but doers, no.
My amendment refers to one group which bridges them—those young people sent into custody from care and so who come into custody without parents. Sensibly, when the Youth Justice Board introduced the detention and training order, an order spent half in custody and half in the community, it insisted that, at the beginning of the custody period, there should be a case conference involving those people responsible for planning what the sentence should be and how it should be carried out. It also invited parents to attend. There was another compulsory conference at the end of the sentence where the same people attended, with the idea of making certain that the transition to community was planned, and that it was overseen by the same people. Interestingly, I was finding that up to 60 per cent of those young offenders had parents attending those conferences. Who was missing? It was the people in care.
This amendment tries to ensure that if people go into custody from care, the person responsible for that care is responsible for them throughout the period they are in custody, to act in loco parentis, to attend conferences, most particularly to plan the resettlement and transition stage and to come with them out into the community. I am seeking to put that burden on the local authorities to make certain that they ensure that a named person who knows this young offender stays with them. I hope that will improve how things happen for them and that we will overcome some of the frightful problems of people in care having no one responsible for them when they come out and having nowhere to go and no one to look after them.
I am very glad that this amendment was grouped with that of the noble Lord, Lord Judd, because in each of the various clauses to which he refers the local authorities are mentioned. One lesson that I learnt from looking at young offender establishments is that the more local they can be, the smaller and the more linked to communities they can be. Then those communities can bring in their resources, their people, their work experience and so on. There is then much more chance of engaging with the young persons
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Yesterday I described such a situation being developed by the foyers of localising young offenders, which I really think is an opportunity for hope. I can see no place for these awful Trojan prisons in this context. Going back to what a child needs, lessons about what is needed must be learnt. I hope that in the spirit of these amendments the Minister will pick this up and pass it on to the people responsible and respond to the points that have been made.
Baroness Linklater of Butterstone: My name is attached to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. I gladly support it and him and the noble Lord, Lord Judd, who is my noble friend. I have been a social worker, a children’s panel member and a magistrate. I have seen this from both sides. Since then I have had quite a lot to do with the theory of it.
The realities are a million miles from what they should be. As the noble Lord, Lord Judd, said, the transition from prison to the outside world is when all people, but particularly young people, are at their most vulnerable. He will know, as I do, that it is not at all unusual for people to come out with nowhere to go. It makes one’s heart bleed to think of what that can mean for people.
This amendment deals with so-called looked-after children, whose total life experience and life chances are, at a stroke, diminished by being in the care of the state. That says a lot for the care of the state, does it not? Our amendment requires local authority representatives to visit a looked-after child, who is in care, who is then taken into custody. There was a Green Paper which vaguely said that local authorities should carry out an assessment of need of such a child,
Not surprisingly, those expectations have not been realised.
A vast proportion of children in custody have been in care—up to 49 per cent—with all that that means. At the same time, we all know just how stretched our social services departments are. So the temptation for social workers, who may be miles from where a child has ended up in custody, to park their responsibilities for such a child until such time as he or she is released is irresistible. That may be the reason—indeed justification—but it does not mean that it is right. Quite the reverse is the case.
For many children, going into custody is like falling into a black hole. Indeed, one of the three STCs that I have visited, some more than once, dissuaded families from visiting, and did not even invite them to come to see a production of a play that had been a great source of excitement and pride to the participants. Distance and cost were the explanations for the lack of any invitation. Distance and cost are also the explanation for lack of social workers, plus, quite rightly, pressure of work and the temptation perhaps to take comfort from the fact that for a while someone else has the responsibility for the child.
Clearly, continuity of care by those whose role it is to support vulnerable children in the community who
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These are children who need more, not less, continuity of care, and it is incumbent on all of us to see that that happens. Once again resources of time, money and manpower are at issue. But if the welfare of the child is indeed paramount and not just another form of words, action must be taken. These children should be at the top of the list, not the bottom where they so shockingly and so often are. We have a pressing duty to see that that is put right.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote: I am a signatory of the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord Judd. Like my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham, we went through exactly the same process with the Children and Young Persons Act and became very aware of the postcode lottery and how many of those children were left without any sort of contact whatever.
There are two major reasons why the amendments are crucial. As we have all heard, this is the most vulnerable group of children we can think of. They have already been failed because we have not been able to stop them committing crimes so that they have ended up in custody. My noble friend Lord Judd spoke passionately about the group that we need to reclaim. We need to save them from themselves and their families, from the abuse they have received, and from their lack of learning and training—all of which have been mentioned—if we are to make any progress with the proposed plans. I hope very much that the two amendments will be accepted—whether they are exactly right or not at this moment is almost immaterial. We are focusing on a group that needs maximum help and support.
An aspect of one of these amendments refers to any contact that has happened in the past and where a relationship had been formed. That is the sort of person that children need to help them through the next period, to advise them on training and make certain that they have somewhere to live. They will engage the local authority and private sector bodies to help with jobs, training, and so on. I was particularly impressed by the Local Government Association. I agree entirely that we need to aim at local placement, whether prison or secure units. They must be increasingly local if they are to succeed. This will also mean that the whole community will gradually feel the responsibility to ensure that they turn into responsible citizens. If they do not, they will be a charge on their own local community. For all those reasons, and the fact that the Local Government Association applauds that approach, wants to see it happen and encourages it, I hope that the Minister will give reassuring answers to the amendment.
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Baroness Butler-Sloss: For the reasons given by my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham I strongly support the amendment to Clause 119. Looking at the time, I am not going to say any more than that. I endorse what he said.
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The Earl of Listowel: In the Children and Young Persons Bill, the Government introduced a new duty on local authorities to place children within the local authority area unless there were exceptional circumstances. That is pertinent to this Bill and these amendments. It makes sense to keep the children as local as possible.
Lord Kingsland: We are most sympathetic to all the arguments deployed in support of the amendments by all those who have moved them or signed them.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: That was a pithy comment. The debate is a fitting conclusion to an extraordinarily interesting day.
I say to my noble friend Lord Judd, who is a great humanitarian, that I am sorry about his exasperation. I fully accept that after-care, resettlement and integration of the young person back into society after release from custody is critical to a successful outcome from the youth justice system. I welcome his acknowledgement that the new Ministry of Justice is in a good position, albeit in close co-operation with our friends at the Department for Children, Schools and Families. I acknowledged to the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, that I would be delighted for my noble friend Lord Adonis to be standing here today taking part. I have watched with interest the debates that he has been having with noble Lords on his Bill. Although it is early days, we are establishing a stronger relationship between the two departments, which is essential to achieving the integrated approach that noble Lords want to see.
I will not comment any further on the country house clean sheet of paper. I was tempted to talk about aircraft carriers to the noble Lord. I will not refer to Titans tonight, although I anticipate a good discussion tomorrow in the noble Baroness’s debate, where my noble friend Lord Carter is also speaking. That should be extremely interesting.
If young people have to go to custody, they should be placed in accommodation that is fully adapted to the needs of that young person. Noble Lords will know that we are not persuaded that local authority secure children’s homes will be suitable for all young people, even if places were available for all of them, which is far from being the case.
I will not go into the detailed reasons, as they were set out by my noble friend Lord Adonis, but I want to assure noble Lords of two things. First, the Government have taken on board the views of noble Lords who have spoken on the matter, both today and on earlier occasions. Secondly, the Youth Justice Board is committed to developing the secure estate for children and young people to ensure that the accommodation provided continues to become more closely adapted to the needs of those young people.
In response to the interesting contribution by the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, I say that, since the YJB assumed responsibility for commissioning and purchasing custodial places in 2000, it has created a diverse and secure estate. Of course, the balance of provision could be improved. We recognise that the provision for the needs of more vulnerable older boys is a particularly worrying issue, which the YJB is working on.
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As I said earlier, we are looking at options for developing the kind of provision required for the young adult offenders to which Members of the Committee have referred. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and other Members of the Committee who have spoken about looked-after children in custody and in general, that we are all aware that they represent some of the most vulnerable children in our society, and that their educational attainment can be pretty poor. In terms of offending, my understanding is that 9 per cent of children in care for a year or more have been cautioned or have committed an offence, compared to 3 per cent for the general child population. We know that many of these problems will continue into adulthood for many looked-after children.
There are some signs of encouragement. The educational outcomes of children in care have improved quite dramatically: 49 per cent of looked-after children got one GCSE in 2000; it rose to 63 per cent in 2006. In 2000, 7 per cent got five A to C grades at GCSE. That is not a good figure at all, but at least it rose to 12 per cent in 2006. Clearly, there is an awful long way to go, but there are some signs of improvement. Of course, there is more to be done.
We are listening very carefully to the comments that Members of the Committee have made, both today and when the Children and Young Persons Bill was being debated. The noble Lord referred to attending the sentence planning meetings, which was a very relevant point. Where the local authority shares parental responsibility for a looked-after child, we would expect its representatives to participate in sentence planning meetings. We will deal with this in future revised guidance to the Children Act 1989. That will be necessary; we will have to change the guidance in the light of the legislation currently going through the House, which offers a valuable opportunity.
We have also made clear our intention to use the delegated powers to impose a requirement for local authorities to arrange visits to those looked-after children who lose their status when they enter custody; namely, those voluntarily accommodated under Section 20 of the Children Act 1989. That will ensure that these children continue to receive the support they need, and that local authorities are aware when they are likely to be discharged from custody. The purpose of the visits will be to assess the young person’s needs and establish the kind of continuing support that will be necessary to resettle the young person back into the community. For some young people, this will involve ensuring that, on release from custody, they are provided with appropriate accommodation and that the local authority should therefore arrange for them to become “looked after” once more.
The new requirements being introduced by the Children and Young Persons Bill will, as I have said, be supported by revisions to regulations and statutory guidance. We will use these revisions to set out that the person responsible for visiting a formerly looked-after child in custody will be an officer of the local authority children’s services, rather than a member of the youth offending team and that, where possible, this officer should be a qualified social worker familiar with the child’s case.
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I very much understand that we are dealing with one of the most vulnerable groups of young people in our society, and that the outcomes for them have been very poor indeed. It is going to be a tremendous challenge to turn this round, but there are signs that we are beginning to see improvements. I also refer to the children leaving care legislation which is helping, as will the joint work between my department and the Department for Children.
I understand my noble friend’s exasperation, but I hope he will accept that we believe that this is a critical area of work to be undertaken by the Government and our partners in local government. I hope that he might stem his exasperation a little more to see how this turns out.
Lord Judd: I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords who participated in this debate, and I am particularly grateful to noble Lords in general for staying beyond the new conventional hour of 10 o’clock. Seeing the Chief Whip sitting there, I should apologise to her that we have over-run 10 o’clock. I am a bit sorry that we have had the pressure of time because I think that some noble Lords would have liked to say more had there been more time. I always listen very attentively to my noble friend when he replies because he is always so courteous and
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