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I do not want to go on for ever but I reiterate that our preferred option is to prosecuteto put these criminals behind bars. Where we cannot do that if they are foreigners, we want to deport them. However, that does not change the fact that despite these improvements there are a small number of these people with whom we cannot do either of those things. I believe that control orders are the best of a lot of bad options available to us for dealing with these individuals. As was shown by the report of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, they are used very selectively. They are used currently with only 11 individuals and have only ever been used with 31 people. They are only one of a package of different measures. The noble Earl said that the figure did not seem very high but we are doing many other things as well.
I believe that not reviewing the Prevention of Terrorism Act would allow these individuals to continue to engage in terrorist-related activity and would put public safety at risk. That is a risk that the Government cannot take. That view is supported by the director-general of the security services and the Intelligence Services Commissioner. Therefore, I have no hesitation in commending this order to the House once again.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for his very full reply. I am also grateful to the House and the Government for allowing us latitude in the extent of this dinner-hour debate to enable us to explore these very important issues at length. We are lucky to have the Minister responsible for terrorism strategy in this House so that when we debate the Counter-Terrorism Bill we shall have the benefit of his expertise. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
The government amendments respond to concerns voiced by the legal profession and Members of both Houses that the current Clause 105 would enable Crown Prosecution Service non-lawyers to appear in trials of potentially serious either-way offences that may be heard before the magistrates court.
Accordingly, the proposed amendments to Clause 105 will limit the trial element of the clause by restricting the statutory powers of Crown Prosecution Service non-lawyers, referred to as designated caseworkers, to undertaking trials of summary-only offences in the magistrates court. This we believe will do much to address the concerns that have been raised in both Houses.
A consequential amendment to the clause provides clarity as to the purpose and intention of Section 7A (2)(b) of the Prosecution of Offences Act 1985. This subsection relates to the subsidiary powers of a designated caseworker. The amendment widens the scope of the current subsection of the Act to include civil proceedings.
We hope that, in the phrasing of these amendments, Members of the Committee will feel that we have gone a long way to address the anxiety, which is really predicated on everyones desire to maintain a high quality of advocacy in the courts. I have written a letter setting out some of the history of designated caseworkers, a copy of which has been put in the Library of the House, but I hope that Members of the Committee have had a copy of it. Therefore, with the Committees permission, I will not refer to all those matters of historical relevance. I will, however, address some of the concerns that have been raised; we have listened to their broad nature and believe that we can respond.
Restricting the trial element of the clause to summary-only offences will remove the possibility, albeit remote, that the Crown Prosecution Service may have deployed a designated caseworker to prosecute a trial involving a serious either-way offence before the magistrates court. This concern was voiced at Second Reading and the Government have now moved to address it. We have not sought to place such a further limitation in the Bill, as it is sensible to allow for the possibility that at some point in the future designated caseworkers may have obtained the trial skills and experience that make it desirable for them to expand into other trial work. To limit unduly the scope of the clause now, requiring further amendment in due course, would not, I respectfully suggest, be an effective use of
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The current Section 7A(3) and (4) of that Act places a statutory obligation on the Director of Public Prosecutions to issue general instructions that govern the nature and type of hearing in which a designated caseworker may be deployed. The Director of Public Prosecutions has assured me, and I can in turn assure the Committee, that the instructions would be amended to limit the deployment of designated caseworkers to trials involving summary-only offences that are non-imprisonable.
The instructions will also provide guidance that will exclude certain categories of trials, such as those where there is a known technical defence involving complex legal issues and those cases that may be considered sensitive; for example, where there is a vulnerable child witness, an elderly person, a victim or matters of that sort that would require evidence to be taken by video link. Further, I have agreed with the Director of Public Prosecutions that should the Crown Prosecution Service wish in later years to extend the nature of trials that a designated caseworker may undertake, the Attorney-General, as their superintending Minister, must be consulted and satisfied that any extension is justified.
I shall also address another concern voiced at Second Reading: that designated caseworkers are not subject to any external regulation. The Crown Prosecution Service acknowledges that concern and accepts that at a time of greater regulation of the legal profession it is important to introduce external regulation for designated caseworkers. Accordingly, I am pleased to confirm that the Crown Prosecution Service has reached agreement, in principle, that later this year designated caseworkers will be granted special membership of the Institute of Legal Executives. The institute will also work with the Crown Prosecution Service to accredit its current and future designated caseworker training programme. Membership will mean that designated caseworkers come within the institutes regulatory framework.
On admission to the Institute of Legal Executives, designated caseworkers will be governed by its professional codes and in essence they will be in the same regulatory position as solicitors and barristers. To that end I can confirm that the Crown Prosecution Service and the institute are in discussion with a view to harmonising the current Crown Prosecution Service Statement of Ethical Principles, which is, in effect, the Crown Prosecution Services comprehensive code of conduct and advocacy code. The institute will look also at how its regulatory and conduct regime can incorporate the CPS standards.
One of the issues about which people were concerned was that designated caseworkers may be young slips of a thing. Doubtless, they are, when compared to this august House; but I understand that a majority, about 70 per cent, tend to be between 30 and 50so they are youngand some 68 per cent are women. This has been an excellent way of trying to broaden diversity and we are much encouraged
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I hope that I have been able to reassure the Committee that this is a material advantage and we will keep the closest eye upon it. I should say that on taking over this issue, I scrutinised these provisions very carefully to assure myself that I could put them before the Committee without hesitation, and this I do. I beg to move.
Baroness Butler-Sloss: In making some observations on the government amendments put forward by the noble and learned Baroness the Attorney-General, I shall oppose the Question that Clause 105 stand part of the Bill, in which I am supported by other noble Lords. Listening to the noble and learned Baroness, I was to some extent relieved by the steps that have been taken. A lot of work has been done in a short time, but I retain some concerns and it is important that I express them.
The use of non-legal advocates to prosecute in contested cases is an extension of the current rights of non-legal Crown Prosecution Service staff. It is helpful, and I am extremely grateful to the Minister and the Attorney-General, to have been kept in touch with the nature of all these proposals and, in particular, that it is not intended that non-legal Crown Prosecution Service staff would prosecute in cases that could lead to imprisonment. That takes the position a long way. But it is important to remember that even in cases in which someone will not go to prison, there is a stigma in a conviction and it is extremely important that those who prosecute should do that to a standard equivalent to those who are legally trained either as barristers or solicitors.
There are criticisms, I have to say, and I have been told about themsome of them very recentlyin relation to the way in which some non-legally qualified Crown Prosecution Service staff carry out their work. I understand that although the National Audit Office expressed the view that the Magistrates Association was satisfied with the way in which the non-legal Crown Prosecution staff conducted the cases, that is not the view of many members of the Magistrates Association. They are not, as I understand it, very satisfied: I am told that the Magistrates Association shares the Bar Councils assessment that the proposal to extend the DCWs powers is all about cost-cutting. They are concerned that poorly prosecuted cases lead to longer and more expensive trialsand, of course, more expensive appeals and increased court and knock-on costs. I understand that the Magistrates Association gave a briefing paper to Peers in January, in which it said that it was opposed to this clause.
The panel recognised the value of an independent second look at prosecutions by a lawyer before they proceed, rather than cases remaining wholly with a case officer who has undertaken the preparatory work. There is felt to be always the danger that, if a case worker has sole end to end involvement,
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I felt it only appropriate to make those points on behalf of that boards consumer panel. Therefore the Magistrates Association, the Bar Council and the Bar Standards Boards consumer panel are concerned.
It seems to me to be, among other things, a matter of training and three sorts of training may be required: training in how to be an advocate as a prosecutor; training in important issues of conduct such as the pre-eminence of the duty to the court, and other matters of great importance; and the importance of the line manager. I express my concern that a Crown Prosecution Service employee who says that a prosecution should not proceed because it is inadequate, or that something is wrong with it will have to face the line manager to explain why that prosecution did not continue. So line managers will have to be trainedthey may not be lawyers, but it will have to be explained to them that there is a duty on the prosecution not to proceed if the case should not go forward.
I am comforted by the noble and learned Baroness the Attorney-General in that the ILEX code of conduct and that of advocates in the Crown Prosecution Service are now being seriously considered with a view to harmonising them, as I think the noble and learned Baroness said, with the rules and practice of conduct of the Bar and of solicitors. If we are to have non-legal Crown Prosecution staff conducting contested trials, it is clearly be important that they should be subject to the identical rules that apply to anyone else who is prosecuting. That, again, becomes a question of training.
I remain concerned. Many of my concerns have been relieved to some extent, but I should like to see one particular thing in the Bill. I have had discussions with the noble and learned Baroness the Attorney-General, who tells me that it is unlikely to be included, but I am concerned that the Bill does not provide that Crown Prosecution Service staff who are not legally qualified would not be engaged in prosecutions which potentially lead to imprisonment. I should very much like to see that in the Bill. However, I am comforted by the fact that I was given the current codes of conduct for both ILEX advocates and Crown Prosecution Service advocates, and I am extremely grateful to the noble and learned Baroness for these. They are infinitely better than I thought they would be but they could be improved.
Lord Borrie: Perhaps I may contribute to this debate by saying something with which I am sure everyone will agree at once: it is most important that there are appropriate restrictions on those who are entitled to engage in advocacy in our courts so that they are suitably qualified and conform to necessary ethical rules when they are so engaged. It is also important that those restrictions are no more than are necessary and that they are proportionate to the needs of the particular situation or case.
In my view, the government amendments to Clause 105I stress, government amendmentsare designed to ensure that the restrictions on who can appear are proportionate, and they are meant to enable designated caseworkers of the Crown Prosecution Service to act as advocates both in non-contested cases, in which they have been so engaged since 1998, and also, from now, in cases involving summary-only offences.
In the light of discussions and in the light of the Second Reading debate, the Government have pulled back from the position that they originally put in the Billhence, the government amendments today. To deal with the concern of many, including the Bar Council, that designated caseworkers should not act as advocates if the trial may result in imprisonment, then it is intended, as my noble and learned friend the Attorney-General indicated, that the DPP will issue instructions under the Prosecution of Offences Act 1985 to limit for the time being the use of designated caseworkers to cases where imprisonment cannot result from the trial.
That, of course, would enable some change at some future time so that, if designated caseworkers qualified and became fellows of the Institute of Legal Executives, they could act as advocates in more serious trials. However, Members of the Committee will have noticed that my noble and learned friend indicated that that should be subject to the qualification of the Attorney-General agreeing to the circumstances and the occasion of that extension.
Using instructions would certainly be more flexible than if the Act, by virtue of amendments made at this or some later stage of the Bill, unduly restricted designated caseworker rights of advocacy. I noticed that the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, welcomed the fact that adherence to the Institute of Legal Executives code of conduct would be fine, particularly if it was harmonised upwardsthat was not her wordto ensure that it complied with and conformed to the Bar and the Law Society codes of conduct.
In summary, it seems to me that the advantages of the Governments carefully crafted amendments are threefold. First, fully-qualified lawyer resources can be concentrated on complex and serious crime. Secondly, the method of approach and the possible extension in the future of the trial advocacy rights of designated caseworkers will enhance the diversity of pathways into the legal profession. Of course, it is in the public interest to ensure wider access to the legal profession over a period of time. Thirdly, we should not, if the Government amendments are accepted, put too much in the Bill unduly to inhibit the development of advocacy rights of DCWs in the future because of the method chosen in the government amendments which would not put restrictions fully in the Bill.
Lord Thomas of Gresford: I totally disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, about not putting restrictions in the Bill. At Second Reading, I suggested that an ILEX qualification was the minimum that one would expect for DCWs who appeared in contested cases of
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I am unhappy that we have a letter of todays date setting out these proposals. This Bill has been around for some eight or nine months and only today we have proposals thrust on us with no chance at all to consult on or discuss them with interested parties. As a result, I shall reserve the position of these Benches on whether it will be necessary to table further amendments to this clause on Report. I shall consider very carefully, with colleagues and interested parties, whether that will be appropriate. The Government have come some way towards what is necessary, but there has to be a point where non-qualified lawyers do not have rights of audience and I am not sure that the line is being properly drawn in the terms of the letter that we have now received.
Lord Mayhew of Twysden: I want to record my complete agreement with everything that has been said by the noble Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. I am grateful for the manifest signs of revision and of hard work the noble and learned Baroness the Attorney-General has plainly put in since she took over. Like the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, we need more time to consider the letter. I received a copy during the afternoon, for which I am grateful. It is very important that we do not rush this provision for reasons that are quite often missed. A prosecuting advocate in a magistrates court is quite often the only lawyer present, apart from the court clerk. A very heavy responsibility rests on him or her to ensure that the prosecution is at all times fair and that the court is never misled. As the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, said, the primary and overriding duty of the advocate is not to the prosecuting authority, but to the court itself.
I am grateful to see that the ambit of the designated caseworkers abilities will be restricted in the way in which we have been told this evening. None the less these cases will often be brought against people who are unrepresented. Their livelihood and reputation may well be at stake even though these are not now imprisonable offences. We should take account of the grave misgivings of the Magistrates Association. As we were reminded yesterday, magistrates take 95 per cent of the cases tried in England and Wales. I think that it is in the order of 2 million cases every year. It is not just a question of being opposed, as it states in its briefing, which the noble Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, mentioned. It states:
That is an extremely important point. I should like to hear from the Attorney-General whether there has been any consultation with the magistrates with a view to assuaging their concerns, which were unusually strongly expressedthat was the associations exact language. There has been some reassuring progress, which has not gone far enough to make me happy, but I am hoping that reassurance will be reinforced.
Lord Kingsland: I gather that noble Lords received this letter this afternoon but have not had an opportunity to read it until an hour or two ago. I pay
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The position of the Opposition, like that of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, is to welcome the fact that the Government have moved considerably on this issue, but to reserve our position at this stage so that we can reflect further on the contents of the letter and consult with the parties with whom we have initially been talking.
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