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Yes, I very much approve of the process. This is a first. This is not big-bang devolution, which many of us would have been concerned about. This is the British way of doing it: step by step and following the process. I believe that the Assembly and others involved have done us a great service. Clearly, we can now look forward to this same process being used in other ways. So, yes, I am happy to join the party.

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, I am delighted to respond to an historic and celebratory debate and I hope very much that, in picking up some of the many questions asked by noble Lords, I will be able to continue in a celebratory tone.

The first question, on the definition of “disability”, was well addressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and my noble friend Lord Rowlands, but perhaps I

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may say for the record that the Welsh Affairs Committee recommended that the order should contain a definition of the term “disability” and refer to the WHO definition and that the Welsh Assembly Government should have the power to change the definition should that become necessary. As noble Lords will be aware, however, the term “disability” is omitted from the draft order following careful consideration. The Welsh Assembly Government decided against taking forward this recommendation, as my noble friend Lord Rowlands said. They concluded that it would be inappropriate for the National Assembly’s legislative competence to be determined by reference to a definition that was not within its control.

The noble Lord, Lord Livsey, asked about the inclusion of travel for higher education learners. As explained in the Explanatory Memorandum, policy in respect of travel to higher education institutions in Wales has traditionally been dealt with by way of grant-making powers, which are provided for in the Teaching and Higher Education Act 1998. It is not envisaged that that position will change. However, the Welsh Assembly Government have accepted the committee’s recommendation to the extent that a measure could make provision about the travel to and from higher education institutions. I believe that noble Lords have picked up on that example of how valuable the scrutiny process has been.

The noble Lord, Lord Livsey, also asked about communication. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, eloquently explained why the use of a broad definition could be so much in learners’ interests. For the record, again, the Welsh Assembly Government gave that recommendation careful consideration and are confident that the words “physical or mental impairment” would include communication impairment. Indeed, it would appear that to accede to the committee’s recommendation would have had the perverse effect of potentially casting doubt on the generality of the current formulation, which is specifically designed to be all-embracing. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, carefully explained that for us. It would be possible for the Welsh Assembly to pass a specific measure about communication difficulties, if it so wished, with the powers contained within the legislative competency order—or the LCO, as I was going to call it.

Cross-border implications, which the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, raised, are also important. Assembly measures, as the noble Lord rightly pointed out, can apply only in Wales and any measure that the National Assembly may make will apply to those in education and training who live in Wales, regardless of where that education and training takes place. If they are placed with an institution in England, it will have been assessed as appropriate for their needs in accordance with Welsh criteria. I hope that it is helpful to put that on the record.

The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, was indeed celebratory, and I found her illustration of the need

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for a wide, all-encompassing term to be very helpful. I also felt reassured that she was celebrating the process and that she felt the process had worked well. The noble Lord, Lord Roberts, said that it is important that we should learn the lessons. This is the first order to come through in this way and I feel reassured that your Lordships have welcomed the process and been pleased with how it has worked. During the passage of the Government of Wales Act, there was much concern about how the scrutiny would work. With the help of noble Lords on the Constitution Committee, committees in the other place and the Welsh Assembly, we have been able to put the concept of rigorous scrutiny into practice.

The noble Lord, Lord Roberts, also asked when we might see the Assembly considering measures following this legislative competency order. It is fair to say that proposals for a measure will have to be considered in the context of all the requests for measures in the Welsh Assembly Government’s next legislative programme. However, as I know that the noble Lord was concerned about the time that all of that takes, the First Minister will make a statement on the legislative programme in June—so we will have news on the timing then.

My noble friend Lord Rowlands offered us reassurance from the perspective of the Constitution Committee, which I know has worked hard on the criteria by which it will consider these Orders in Council. I am delighted that it is prepared to put the work in on behalf of the National Assembly for Wales and for the successful implementation of the 2006 Act. I am interested that we are already, perhaps, hearing that the National Assembly might be giving lessons to the Westminster Government, and I imagine that that might continue.

My noble friend Lord Anderson joined in the celebration, but highlighted what was, for me, an important point; that this legislative competency is being devolved to Wales very much in a step-by-step process. It is about building confidence between all the parties involved—your Lordships’ House, the other place, the Welsh Assembly and the Welsh people—through a successful process in which there is rigorous scrutiny, transparency and an opportunity for all those concerned with the question of devolution in Wales to have a chance to have a say and make an input.

I will close by saying that the granting of legislative competence on additional learning needs will enable the National Assembly to carry forward its policies and make a real difference to the lives of those Welsh learners, enabling them to fully participate in the many learning opportunities available in Wales. As I said earlier, it will enable the Assembly to consider and scrutinise future legislation in this area and to tailor provision in line with Welsh needs.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House adjourned at 6.31 pm

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