| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
In Article 61, the treaty also calls for the European Union to,
- “frame a common policy on asylum immigration and external border control, based on solidarity between Member States which is fair towards third-country nationals”.
In Article 61g, a new wide-ranging power is introduced for the Council to pass measures by majority voting to ensure administrative co-operation between national police and criminal justice authorities and the Commission.
Articles 62 and 63 state that the Union shall develop a common policy on asylum, with a view to offering appropriate status to any third-country national requiring international protection. Article 63a states the aim of the common immigration policy for the EU. Worryingly, it repeals the provision that EU immigration policy will not prevent member states from having their own compatible national policy and replaces it with a provision that simply states that member states can determine volumes of entrants to their countries—a considerable change of emphasis.
There are significant elements to the treaty that could affect our ability to control and manage our own immigration policies. Mind you, having just read the House of Lords Select Committee on Economic Affairs report on the impact of immigration in this country, I am not sure that it could be said that the Government are managing any aspect of it, but perhaps that is a debate for another day.
Although the noble Baroness the Leader of House did not make much play about the opt-ins and red lines that the Home Secretary cited in the other place as being the protection that this country had negotiated to prevent it having to accept EU legislation to which it was not wedded, as many noble Lords have said, in reality, even under the current treaty, that is not an effective safeguard, as a decision to opt in has to be taken at the start of negotiations. At the start, it is clearly not possible to know what the outcome is likely to be once the negotiations are completed. At that stage, there is no further opportunity to opt out if the final result is not to our benefit or liking.
However, that gets worse under Lisbon. A new provision to the opt-in procedure would mean that if the UK decided not to support unwelcome changes to legislation on asylum, immigration or police co-operation, it could be barred from the existing measures to which it has agreed. For example, that could result in our not being able to participate in the Dublin II agreement on the return of asylum seekers to their country of origin, to which we have already signed up. One might say that the force of the thumbscrew would ensure that the Government backed down, as the outcome would be unsatisfactory, but that would mean that they would have to accept something that was clearly not in this country's interests in order to sustain something that was.
1 Apr 2008 : Column 949
So we can see that the implications of the changes to the treaty in the area of asylum and immigration are far-reaching. Although no one would deny that co-operation and, indeed, co-ordination, in these matters across Europe is likely to be of value—we do not—the ability for this country to maintain its own measures and controls, not harmonised if that is what it would prefer, has effectively been jettisoned.
Border controls remain a very sensitive issue. We have had a number of interesting times on this matter from the UK Borders Bill onwards. The announcements due today or tomorrow from the Home Secretary on the make-up of the new borders force are likely to give us room for more timely debates. However, the control of our borders in the control of immigration is one of the most fundamental.
Although we are not full members of the Schengen group—we take part in the majority of measures on police co-operation but not on measures on border controls—the expansion of the Schengen agreement and its borders as a result of the recent accession states has made it of fundamental importance to us. It is therefore bizarre that, because we are not members of that group, we are denied input into Frontex, the European organisation set up to manage co-operation between member states and the external borders. An application by the United Kingdom to join Frontex was denied in December 2007 by the European Court of Justice. As an island nation that, it is apparent, is the aspiration of many immigrants, legal or otherwise, to reach, we must retain control of our national frontiers, but it is clear that we have interests further afield and our inability to host Frontex operations on UK territory has implications for Europe itself, which is now being denied that capacity.
We believe that this country should retain control of its own borders. I therefore very much hope that, in replying, the noble Baroness the Leader of the House will be able to provide evidence—she may, if she will listen—that under the new treaty, we will be able effectively to do so.
The Government's decision that this was an amending treaty that did not require them to adhere to their manifesto commitment to have a referendum is at the heart of the discussions today. I have not touched at all on the justice aspect of this part of the treaty, but, even taking the Home Office elements, which I have tried to demonstrate today, the people of this country have a right to say whether or not they believe that the Lisbon treaty, or the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union—which trips lightly off the lips—is what they believe to be in their interests. The Government's refusal to test that out is a manifest cop-out.
6.26 pm
Lord Maclennan of Rogart: My Lords, earlier in this debate, in a notable speech, the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, testified to my interest in this subject. I, too, was a member of the Convention on the Future of Europe, which prepared the draft constitutional treaty. It will therefore not surprise noble Lords that I have considerable interest in the outcome of this ratification debate.
1 Apr 2008 : Column 950
My interest goes back a great deal further than that. I can bear personal testimony to the fluidity—shall we say?—of party opinion on the subject of the European Union, having experienced the switchback ride under the Wilson Government, which forced me in 1971 into the slightly quixotic position of resigning from the Front Bench after we lost office having been the only member of the Front Bench not to have held office. Subsequently, in the post-1979 period when, again, the Labour Party lost office, and espoused the doctrine of withdrawal from the European Union, I found that my loyalties had been tested to destruction.
I entirely support the view of my leader, the noble Lord, Lord McNally, that it is time that political parties stopped enthusing—or at least trying to make the Union work—when in government and denouncing it and its works in the popular press when out of government. Consistency of British vision might have been thought to have been something that the Conservative Party would be prepared to align itself to.
The importance of this ratification is that if we as a country fail to pass the Bill, the treaty itself will come apart. Despite the implications set out by some speakers from the independence party representing the allies of the Conservative Party, that would not alter our position fundamentally. We would have to rely on the inadequacies of the existing treaty basis of decision-making. Maastricht, Amsterdam and Nice will remain. Despite the fact that we have a much enlarged Union of 27 member states for which that framework of decision-making is wholly inappropriate, the immediate consequence of not ratifying the treaty would not be disintegration, but it would lead to great doubt about the effectiveness of the Union in tackling the global challenges that face us.
It has been suggested in some of the blogs that I have received—and I have had many—from members of the public that Parliament is not the right place to decide this issue. I beg to differ, and profoundly, for British reasons. We in this country have a long tradition of considering our treaties in this manner if they result in or require changes in the law to make our law conform to the decisions taken by our popularly elected Government in negotiations on treaties. We are acting entirely according to British constitutional practice in proceeding as we are, and the Government are entirely right to do it this way.
The circumstances that gave rise to the proposed alternative of a referendum and that preceded the treaty of Lisbon were quite different, not only because Britain’s position has been altered by the Government’s so-called red lines, which brought in opt-ins and opt-outs and were not in the constitutional treaty, but because this is a treaty of great complexity that has no aspirations to be produced by the founding fathers of a new generation. It is a complicated and difficult treaty to follow, but it is an amending treaty and no more. Does it have constitutional implications? Of course it does. It has significant constitutional implications, and it is my judgment that the proper place to deal with those is Parliament.
If we do not ratify the treaty, we in this country and in the Union at large face the problem of potential impotence. This is not, as the noble Lord, Lord
1 Apr 2008 : Column 951
As to the competency of Parliament to scrutinise, which some of the bloggers doubted, I can only draw their attention, if they have the patience and stamina, to the report, which I had some part in writing, from the EU Select Committee. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, on a fine job of marshalling the detailed arguments that we will consider during the debates that are planned on the Bill. It is highly objective, and it is a remarkable achievement to have had it signed by Members of this House, regardless of whether they were for or against the European Union.
It has also been said by some of the opponents that this measure is a step towards diminishing our democracy. That is to overlook entirely the strengthening of democracy encompassed in this treaty—the provisions extending the powers of the European Parliament to co-decide with the Council legislation on agriculture, fisheries, transport, structural funds, justice and home affairs. It overlooks the parity that is now enjoyed by the European Parliament and the Council over budgetary matters and which has abolished the distinction between compulsory and non-compulsory CAP expenditure and has made the multi-annual financial framework subject to European parliamentary assent. That is an important democratic advance. It also provides that the presidency of the Commission can be influenced by the European political parties indicating to the electorate who their choice for president would be if they were successful in the parliamentary elections. That would make that so-called bureaucracy much more obviously a body influenced by the British public and by other electors throughout the European Union. It also enhances the powers of the national Parliaments. Others have addressed that issue, and no doubt we will again.
I conclude by referring to the maiden speech of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chichester. It was very affecting, referring as it did to George Bell, the right reverend Prelate’s predecessor, who was one of those to whom Germans rebelling against Hitler appealed—Adam von Trott was another—to act as a channel of communication for the democracy and the rule of law in which they believed. The right reverend Prelate spoke of the moral core of the Union. How right he was to emphasise that. I remind some of the Conservative noble Lords who are playing footsie with insularity and dressing it up as national interest
1 Apr 2008 : Column 952
- “the aim and the design of a United Europe, whose moral conceptions will win the respect and gratitude of mankind and whose physical strength will be such that none will dare molest her tranquil sway ... We hope to see a Europe where men of every country will think of being a European as of belonging to their native land, and ... wherever they go in this wide domain ... will truly feel, ‘Here I am at home’”.
Those were Conservative words. Let them be remembered during the passage of the Bill.
6.37 pm
Lord Plumb: My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, who finished with some wise words that many of us have heard many times over a period of years. I note that we are half way through the list of speakers. The speeches might get a little shorter as the evening wears on, but this has been an intriguing debate in which we hear from those on all sides of the House the rights and wrongs, and consideration, of a treaty that replaces a number of treaties. As the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, just said, it is an amending treaty, which amends many that have gone before.
I feel privileged to have been able to serve on the EU Select Committee under the able chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, and I support his report, which he gave us today. It was an excellent report that did not go one way or the other, as he rightly said, but sets the scene adequately so that it gives us the background for a debate. The debate that we are having today augurs well for the Committee work that we face in the next few weeks.
I was also privileged to serve on Sub-Committee D under the equally able chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Sewel. This fascinating report dealt with the common agricultural policy, now including fisheries. Many wry smiles broadened as we spent some months dealing with a report on wine, which was a little different from what many people perhaps think. I, and anyone who sat in on those committees, could not help but be impressed at the depth of scrutiny into European affairs by the members of the committee, particularly on the impact assessment of the Lisbon treaty. Who knows, and we shall see, what will happen following our Committee stage and before we come to a final vote.
Being a Member of the European Parliament for 20 years and being President for two and a half years did not make me any less British. I am as British as anyone in this Chamber, but I am nevertheless committed, as I have been over many years, to the European cause. I have witnessed the treaties which have governed the change from Rome to Lisbon. The single market is the most significant advance from which we have all benefited over time—although not as much as perhaps we might have done—when people, goods, services and capital were able to move freely through the frontiers.
The Lisbon treaty, as we read it, adds a fifth freedom; that is, the free movement of knowledge. I hope that that will mean an increased sharing of research and development and taking advantage of a competitive
1 Apr 2008 : Column 953
When I was a Member of the European Parliament, I used to be very proud to say that I was a Member of the youngest and the oldest Parliaments in the world. It is characteristic of what is happening. It is new and, therefore, has to be built and to be recognised. If we are members of the club, let us play our cards as members of the club and not always try to be different, as so often we are.
We recognise that a judgment on the reform treaty, defining the powers of decision, has to satisfy the needs of the people. But it has to satisfy them by controlling regulations, by the better implementation of existing legislation, and by creating more liberalisation and fair competition. Anyone who manufactures anything will say that all legislation adds a burden to their business.
The main question posed by this treaty is whether political, economic and social policies can be the more easily fulfilled at a European or a national level. I have been involved in such policies over some years. First, on the European Development Fund, I believe that there is one convincing instrument where a donor community can deliver on development policy much more effectively than nation states. I speak from experience. During my last five years at the European Parliament, I was President of the Joint Parliamentary Assembly of the European Union and the African, Caribbean and Pacific countries. I saw the genocide at first hand in Rwanda, Burundi, Zaire and the Congo. I also visited many parts of Africa where the people we met at least recognised Europe. All the camps of perhaps 80,000 people had tents with the EU sign over the top of them. They saw me—I am proud to say—as Mr Europe, because I represented the peoples of Europe in trying to help them. I hope that the treaty will see that development go much further.
Secondly, on agriculture, the chairman of Sub-Committee D has given a full report of our findings. Despite the many changes embedded in the reform treaty, the objectives and the rationale for a common agricultural policy remain unchanged, but in a totally different form, which is market-led as opposed to product subsidies. Europe’s concern today differs from that of a few years ago when surpluses of this and that had to be dumped into the world market and did more harm in developing countries than anywhere else. The situation today is of food security, rather than that of surpluses. As we learnt from a debate in this House only recently, world food stocks are decreasing. Consumption is outstripping supply.
Thirdly, environmental protection is very much a European issue. It can be argued that there is a need to ensure that environmental constraints on agriculture through cross-compliance are broadly equal throughout Europe to avoid competitive distortions. As we have already heard from several noble Lords, including agriculture and budgets in the design of agricultural policy through the extension of co-decision procedure
1 Apr 2008 : Column 954
Finally, tied to agriculture is the major issue facing the immediate future; that is, not only climate change, but also the drive for lower carbon emissions. Above all, this requires collaboration in research and development, and the demonstration of new energy alternatives if we are to match the United States and Japan. Without this it may be cheaper to burn more coal, which would be market failure, as indicated in the Stern report. A determined European Union-wide campaign is the practical way to cope with these issues, as well as making people understand what they are about. I believe that this treaty merits and requires a rigorous political debate in order to enable the people of this country better to identify the advantages and disadvantages of the treaty from a United Kingdom perspective. We need to identify those areas of progress, the issues on which it would find it difficult or expensive to go it alone and determine the local issues where subsidiarity is a principle which should apply.
6.50 pm
Baroness Deech: My Lords, I am pleased to follow the noble Lord, Lord Plumb, in that my position in the speakers list marks the beginning of the latter half of this debate. In the brief time allotted to us, I would like to make only two points. Does this Bill amount to a constitution and should the treaty that it embodies be ratified without a referendum of the British public? I may fail to persuade noble Lords of the correct answer—not that your Lordships do not have open minds on this—because both of the questions may be viewed from two perspectives: political or legal; head or heart.
There is no set definition of a constitution in British law because unlike virtually all other countries, we have never had one as such, and our jurisprudence has not had to get to grips with the particular forms and effects that a constitution may take. The written constitution is alien to us for our British constitution is a natural state of things, sometimes made by statute. It involves the union of Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland; it is enhanced by human rights, membership of the United Nations, and by age-old custom and convention such as the position of the Crown and your Lordships’ own House. In other words, a constitution can be a cumulative affair and may take many forms that come together.
A constitution is normally national, presupposing a state, a populace or a common identity. In the alternative, the seeds of these national requirements are present, and the constitution is to cement them. In the case of Europe, these conditions beg the question: is Europe to be a new state with one population and one identity? This Bill, whatever the nomenclature to be adopted,
1 Apr 2008 : Column 955
Cumulatively, in my view, the states of Europe have reached a position where they have a constitution, even if not in one document and even without that name. All the elements are there. The treaty of Lisbon gives the European Community a new foundation and a new name. It increases the powers of the parliament, establishes legal personality, changes the voting system, and draws in justice and home affairs, as did the abandoned European constitution of 2004. It also makes provision for a president. This treaty and the earlier ones can function only if the states of Europe pool some sovereignty. Its constitutional nature is also evident in the provisions dealing with foreign policy. A high representative for foreign affairs and security, regardless of the name, complete with diplomatic missions to fortify the European Union presence on the world stage, is equivalent to a foreign policy. This risks a conflict of views if the British and French representatives on the Security Council were to express views differing from their European high representative, and member states are now to be duty bound to come to each other’s aid if attacked. Nothing could be more like a constitution than these provisions, and they are coupled with a loss of UK power by reduced influence in the Commission and in voting.
| Next Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |