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As Peter Riddell pointed out in an article in the Times this morning, your Lordships’,
Well, we have amendments to make. I do not know how Peter Riddell heard about them, but we will be tabling them. The point is not about being pro-European or anti-European, it is all about accountability, due process and the rule of law.
The one issue that has overhung this debate is the question of a referendum. I cannot avoid dealing with that, especially as the noble Baroness the Lord President said that she was going to deal with it in her speech when she was interrupted—rightly, I think—for clarification by my noble friend Lord Forsyth.
As I said, this has been a marvellous debate, drawing on that breadth and depth of experience and wisdom that could not be bettered anywhere. That is all very well, but this should be a debate for everyone, not just for the sage heads who populate the Benches in this House.
The referendum is certainly no longer an abstruse constitutional question. I particularly commend the speeches of my noble friends, Lord Forsyth, Lord Leach of Fairford and Lord Waddington. My noble friend Lord Leach had it right when he said that surely the Government could not go back on a pledge that helped to win them the election. In essence, it is a matter of trust. The outstanding speech for me was that made by the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, who pointed out why it was a question of trust. I just say to the noble Viscount, Lord Falkland, that that was the speech that should have motivated and moved him. I found it very persuasive.
Sir Winston Churchill famously said, “Trust the people”. As ever, he was highly prescient. My noble friend Lord Howell may grieve, but, as my noble friend Lord Liverpool and others pointed out, all the parties at the last election promised a referendum on a document that was substantially similar to the treaty of Lisbon, a document that the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, said in the debate was a treaty of real significance. What matters is that it is surely sophistry, as my noble friend Lord Marlesford said, to claim that differences between this treaty and the former constitutional treaty are so great that its constitutional significance has somehow been stripped away. The analysis of my noble friend Lord Blackwell proved that.
This is the treaty formerly known as the constitutional treaty. As the noble Lord, Lord Kinnock, said, it should never have been called a constitutional treaty, a point echoed by my noble friend Lord Brittan of Spennithorne. The noble Lord, Lord Harrison, called
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The noble Baroness, Lady Williams, said that this was all Tony Blair’s fault. This was a surprising theme in the debate: that it was somehow all the fault of one person called Tony Blair who somehow thought up the idea of a referendum. It was not Tony Blair; it was someone called Mr Clegg. According to the Guardian in 2003, the present leader of the Liberal party said that if there were to be changes as a result of the discussions in Europe, Tony Blair should stop refusing a referendum and embrace it. It was Mr Nick Clegg who thought up the idea and persuaded Tony Blair, so how the noble Baroness can now turn on Tony Blair and blame him for what her own party did, I simply cannot understand. Anyway, that is the Liberal party. It was all over the place in this debate. Having pledged a referendum and then abstained in the other place, it decided to adopt the third way—to oppose a referendum. My goodness, we are still trying to work out exactly where it stands.
This latest breach of trust will be significant indeed for the Labour Party. As my noble friend Lord Lawson said, it is a question of political integrity. What a telling question was posed by the noble Lord, Lord Renwick of Clifton: whether the Government’s commitment to hold a referendum, if they were to recommend entry into the eurozone and the adoption of the euro, still stands. The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, also asked that question. I hope that the Lord President will answer it.
It is alas too characteristic of this Government that they should choose to arrogate to themselves every decision possible. Everything must be micro-managed and controlled from the centre. They seem to say, “Don’t let the voters trouble their little heads about matters that are far too complicated for them”. The Government constantly ask the people to trust them. On this crucially important issue, why will they not trust the people? If they do not, the people will never trust them again.
11.50 pm
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, first, may I say to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, how much I have missed him? For what may be the only time in our deliberations, I agree with him that the array of knowledge, experience and talent that has come together demonstrates again that your Lordships know very well how to have an 11-hour debate, end up quite exhausted, but end up very determined. I look around at so many noble Lords who have contributed and think that this is a debate par excellence.
I feel very privileged to be here. I took on this responsibility very willingly and I am delighted that I did so. In the time that I think I can safely allocate myself without causing too many concerns, I shall try
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The award for passionate contributions goes to the noble Lord, Lord McNally, with close seconds to the noble Lords, Lord Maclennan of Rogart and Lord Forsyth, and my noble friend Lady Symons. We would have been poorer without their contributions for sure. Early on in his contribution, I think that I heard the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, say that I dazzled him. I am very impressed with that. I of course agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, on the maiden speech. I give the award for the maiden speech made in a highly controversial debate, but made extremely well, to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chichester. He followed admirably in the footsteps of his predecessor George Bell. I agree with him, and the quoted President Sarkozy, that it is time to move on from institutional change to doing what is needed. I agree wholeheartedly with the right reverend Prelate and I thank him for his support. I enjoyed the speech made by the noble Viscount, Lord Falkland. I am pleased to see that the power of speeches to make effective change still exists. As the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, said, I hope that the second half of the debate did not change his mind back again.
On opening this debate, I paid tribute to the work of the members of the European Union Committee, but I clearly was not alone. To the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, I say, “Feel the love”. As every noble Lord who has commented on the report has said, this was a remarkable piece of work. Sadly, as my noble friend Lady Symons said, it was not picked up by the media, for the reasons that she gave.
The noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, asked particularly about the comments on page 246 of the report on how your Lordships’ House would deal with the consequences of the treaty in terms of procedure. I very much look forward to talking with the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, and to my noble friend Lord Harrison, who made a great speech. I also would be grateful for the views of other members of the committee. Perhaps we can begin those dialogues very soon, for I appreciate that that is important.
To the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, I offer many accolades for the work of the Constitution Committee. We will look carefully at its report and at the comments made by the noble Lord today. I shall try really hard not to trade quotes with the noble Lord, Lord Howell. I have here the quotes that perhaps I could have used. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, although I know that he was pained when he made the comment that we should rest on the merits of the argument. I appreciate that point and agree that that is what we should do.
I ask noble Lords who have not yet had the chance to look carefully at the reports in this House and another place to rely on them in their entirety and not necessarily on the selectivity of individual quotes. It is very important that we do that, particularly because I was struck as I watched my honourable friend Mr
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The relevant example that he gave—noble Lords have raised this—was that the Scrutiny Committee had said that the reform treaty was substantially equivalent to the EU constitution. That is not what was said in the report: what was actually said was completely different. What matters is whether the new treaty produces an effect which is substantially equivalent to the constitutional treaty. Those who took the last part of the sentence and presented it as fact should note that the report went on to say that for countries that did not have opt-outs and derogations, the treaty was substantially the same, but that was not the case for the UK.
I agree with my noble friend Lord Gilbert about the noble Lord, Lord Williamson. He made a balanced, sensible speech and one that was right. I am grateful to the noble Lord for his contribution. I was worried that my noble friend Lord Gilbert might go a little over the top, but thankfully he did not. I agree with what he said, particularly about the death penalty, and of course about the importance of European Union enlargement into eastern Europe. When I was a justice Minister I had the pleasure of meeting colleagues in Romania, Bulgaria, Poland and Lithuania, where I travelled on a number of occasions to work with them and support what they were doing both prior to accession in the case of Romania and Bulgaria, and post-accession in the case of all four countries. It was a deeply privileging experience and extremely important as we began to work together on areas of justice.
I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Monson, that the bus driver directive he mentioned is completely untrue, and I shall have to look at all the others he cited. At one point I thought that the banana directive would rear its head, but I am pleased to say that it did not.
In response to the words of the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, I will try to demonstrate that not everything that is important needs to be boring, something my children tell me I have pretty much failed at for the whole of my life. My noble friend Lord Giddens was right to say that what we have is where successive governments have sought to get us: to an open, flexible and enlarged European Union. We are at a very important point in our history as a part of Europe.
The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, and my noble friend Lord Kinnock said that the purpose of this treaty lay in having to think about how to deal with a European Union that was no longer made up of six, 12 or 15 nations, but 27. Its institutions and modus operandi needed to reflect that. Some of the frustrations described by my noble friend Lady Symons when she was a Minister working in Europe I shared on the Justice and Home Affairs Council, and I believe, as I know she does, that changes are important. But changes are
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I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, about how differently the next generation views the world it has grown up in, and I appreciate the sporting analogy she made. But I have to say to the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, that I think it has been more Arsenal than Derby County tonight, which is the highest accolade I can give when living in an Arsenal household and being a Liverpool supporter. We need to make changes while protecting British interests and enhancing British prosperity. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, that the EU has been good for our prosperity. The free market of capital and the measures on competition mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Jay, will make a big difference. I leave both noble Lords to try to reassure the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, about employment. I have failed completely every time I have answered Questions on this subject, but perhaps with the help of the noble Lords, Lord Jay and Lord Rodgers, we may be able to achieve more. The noble Lord, Lord Pearson, shakes his head, and that is probably the way it is.
The noble Lord, Lord Tugendhat, said to nods of agreement from some noble Lords, particularly on the Liberal Democrat Benches, and support from the noble Lord, Lord Bowness, that he feared that the Government had been defensive rather than positive in promoting the treaty. I have thought about it quite a lot over these hours, so as I turn to the issues that have been raised, let me see if I can truly defend and promote this Bill to the noble Lord’s satisfaction. I agree again with the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, that there is nothing frightening in what we want to achieve here.
I turn to the relationship between the treaty and the constitution. I have said already on a number of occasions in your Lordships’ House that they are not the same, and I shall quote from a document:
“One of the most important aspects of the Constitutional process and the one that fundamentally differentiates the Treaty of Lisbon from the Draft Constitution is that the Constitution repealed the existing Treaties and replaced them with a single text. In so doing the Constitution would have created a new European Union that would have replaced and succeeded the existing Union”.
I am quoting from The Treaty of Lisbon in Perspective, my new blue book. I want to thank the noble Lords, Lord Pearson, Lord Stoddart and Lord Willoughby de Broke, who bought it for me saying that I might find it useful; indeed, they have inscribed it for me. I have found it useful because I have just quoted from it.
Noble Lords know that there are other differences between the constitution and the treaty. The primacy of European Union law is removed from the main text and included as a declaration, and the symbols are removed; the Charter of Fundamental Rights is removed from the text to a separate document and the changes are highlighted; the Protocol on the charter with nothing extended; the ability of any court, European or domestic, to strike down UK law; the common foreign and security policy in a separate treaty, nothing affecting
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Am I going to convince some noble Lords opposite and on other Benches about this? I am not. Although I have learnt much about fishing from the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, I fear I will never convince him on this. The debate about differences is, in a sense, the debate about the referendum, and that owes much to party politics. Whatever the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, says, I believe that the once great Conservative Party is in a difficult position in Europe, isolated as it is from those with whom it should naturally be in concert as it moves forward in Europe.
On the referendum, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe of Aberavon, said that referenda are a gamble on issues like this. The noble Lord, Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank, with his £165 win, knows much about gambling. I will begin my comments by citing a remarkable speech in 1975 when the question of a referendum was being considered. Making points about parliamentary strength and collective responsibility, the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher—then Mrs Thatcher—said:
“The third point I want to make is the effect of a referendum on representative Government ... our system, which has been copied all over the world, is one of representative Government under which those who do not have the time to look into every detail of this or that Bill choose people who are honourable and with whose opinions they are in harmony to discuss these matters. That has been our system of Government for many years, representative Government in which the representatives consider and discuss all the points in detail”.
I was thinking of that when the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, described his concerns about the weight, literally, of the documentation and the detail with which he felt he could not get to grips without being a lawyer. There are real issues when one considers the use of referenda. We are trying in this Parliament and through the deliberations in your Lordships’ House to give the level of detail that representative Governments and Parliaments should do to make sure that the people of this country can trust, to go back to the word of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, this Parliament to make those decisions.
I do not expect an answer tonight, but a question that has been around for some time is what would happen if the Conservative Party were to come back into power. What would it do if the Bill is ratified, as I trust it will be? What would be its position? It is very important not only for this Parliament to know but for Europe to know.
Again I go back to the words of the then Mrs Thatcher. She describes the situation thus. She said:
“The treaty has been in operation for over two years. I know of no country in the Western World in which a referendum has been used to override a treaty obligation which had been through all its parliamentary stages and had been in operation for two years. Such a step would have a damaging effect on Britain’s standing in the world”.—[Official Report, Commons, 11/3/75; cols. 313-14.]
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I therefore hope that during the course of our discussions and deliberations, just as the noble Lords opposite expect me to deal with all of these issues, I expect them to tell us what they plan to do should the treaty be ratified, placed on the statute book and they, at some time in the future, come back into power.
Noble Lords referred also to some of the local referenda and the figures that have been given by that campaign. I dealt with this in another debate. The figures from the We Want a Referendum campaign—not my figures—show that 62 per cent of the electorate in each area were given a ballot paper; 23 per cent of the electorate sent it back. Those in favour of a referendum, therefore, represented 19.8 per cent of the electorate. That is the figure we need to look at, not at what was the percentage of those who bothered to return the ballot paper because that does not tell us anything. What matters is what percentage of the electorate who had been given a ballot paper responded. We have to be very clear about that.
The noble Lord, Lord Leach, asked whether the pledge of a referendum would have had any effect on candidates. I bothered to ring up a person who might know about the information from polling. We cannot see any effect that it would have on Labour or Liberal Democrat candidates, so I do not accept the assertion.
We are clear that the treaty is not a constitution. The Government believe that, as in all previous treaties, it is for Parliament to decide. As the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, said, we are acting entirely appropriately. For some noble Lords, the issue is not about a referendum; it is about the European Union itself and its future. Noble Lords were frank, open and honest about that and I respect them enormously. Some noble Lords would be supportive should there be a referendum. Others would argue not to sign up to the treaty and some would argue further than that, that we should not continue in Europe.
We have to consider the implications of that very carefully. My noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis said that the route being prescribed is misconceived and could be damaging. My noble friend Lord Tomlinson asked what happens if this Bill falls. Is what is being sought the status quo or is it a retreat? How would we deal with the issues of an enlarged European Union and the institutional changes that are necessary? As any noble Lord knows who has ever been involved in an organisation that grows, one has to decide the rules to make sure that they are appropriate for the organisation.
The noble Lord, Lord Garel-Jones, said that the Government backed off from a referendum because we thought we would lose it. There is no evidence from referendums anywhere that Governments lose because they do not put their energy into it. Our record on referendums suggests that the chances are very high that the Government would win it, not least because the constitution, had we gone down that route, was what we believed in. As I said, there is a substantive and important difference between what was proposed then and what is proposed now. There was no fear of that on this side of the House.
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The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, suggested that we could have a Europe-wide referendum. That was rather a brave thought, but I am not sure that any of us is ready to go down that road.
The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, asked particularly about the UK and the Commonwealth. Noble Lords also asked about the euro. Government policy is that we would not go into the euro without a referendum. The Government continue to believe very strongly in the importance to the UK of the Commonwealth. Membership of the European Union is not to the detriment of membership of the Commonwealth. It is not an either/or issue. The Commonwealth is an extraordinary network of countries, big and small, rich and poor, that represent more than a quarter of the world’s population. It has great potential, as many noble Lords will know. The noble Lord, Lord Howell, is a passionate advocate of our relationship with the Commonwealth. We are by far the largest contributor to it. I can also say that the Queen’s position is completely unchanged by the treaty.
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