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My view is fairly simple. I have spent my life working in and around the EU, but I have always fought and competed with it; I have never colluded. I always thought that treaties were about making peace. I hate all this bureaucracy and these pieces of paper that nobody understands. If you asked the electorate tomorrow what this is all about, they would probably sound a little like the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, and say that it is about surrendering power. I have always regarded things as an opportunity. I worry now that the Government may not have consulted and do not know what they should consult about. I have a feeling that, within the bones of the country, there would be opposition to what is proposed if people knew what that was.
I believe in elected representatives. Roughly 106,000 people in this country are elected representatives, from parish councils through to regional councils and various other bodies. I rang various associations today to ask which of them had been consulted on this. The answer was none. Perhaps we are democratic. Then I thought, “I am one of the elected ones in this place, so perhaps that takes the number up by another 92”. But I am still not sure how I can equate my feeling that referenda are wrong with my feeling that the Government have not consulted. I do not believe that the Government are with it at the moment. I wish them well, but sometimes there are things that you can do from within and sometimes you can do them from without.
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Lord Willoughby de Broke: I support my noble friend’s remarks. I welcome the amendment, but it surprises me that the noble Lord, Lord Lea, is so negative about referendums. He seems to think—in common, perhaps, with the noble Lord, Lord Hannay—that the people do not really understand the issue and cannot be trusted to make their mind up. He said that the campaign would be xenophobic and one-sided. That is not true. Both sides have an equal chance to put their case under the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000. It is all set down in statute. It will be a perfectly open and reasonable debate, so I really cannot accept that it would be either one-sided or too complicated for people to understand.
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Nor can I accept the notion that the French were not voting on the issues before them. I, too, was in France during the referendum and it was interesting to see the various reasons. There were agreements among various parties, but that is the beauty of referendums; they bring people together on a single issue. There was no doubt that they voted against the constitution; they were not voting about the colour of Mr Chirac’s socks or anything else. The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, was quite right: a few days later, the Dutch voted overwhelmingly against the constitution. I do not think that they could be criticised for voting on something that was not in the constitution. They definitely voted against the constitution. I do not think that it is right to say that we dare not trust the people of this country with the issues arising from the constitution or from this reform treaty, which, as has been pointed out, is the same as the constitution.
I agree with my noble friend Lord Pearson that this is a very good first step but a first step only. If the people of this country are given the vote on a referendum—and the opinion polls tell us that they will certainly reject the treaty—we are still left with what we have got, which is where the EU is right now. We have a lot of experts here, and the noble Lord, Lord Kinnock, will tell me if I am wrong, but that means that we would have to fall back on the provisions set out in the Nice treaty. That is how the EU is operating at the moment. From the point of view of those of us who believe that we would be better off out of the EU, we would still have the acquis communautaire, we would still have the Commission as sole legislator, telling us what we can grow on our land and what we can fish out of our seas, and we would still be paying the EU £14 billion a year of our taxpayers’ money. That would be the position even if the treaty were put to a referendum.
It would be wonderful to have such a referendum. It may be liberating and it may, as my noble friend said, wake people up if they have an open debate about our relationship with the European Union. But it may not. They may say, “Is this right? Are we going down the right road here towards further integration? Is it what we really want?”. They have not been consulted on our relationship with the European Union for many years—the last time was the 1975 referendum. So it would be an open debate. I do not see why noble Lords are frightened of having open debate in the country about our relationship with the European Union; it must be healthier to do that. As far as it goes, I strongly support the amendment and I hope that, if it comes to a vote tonight, it will be carried.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: This has been an extremely interesting debate. I feared that there would be nothing new, as we have already touched on so many of the issues, not least in the extensive Second Reading debate, through Oral Questions that I have answered and through a number of debates since. In particular, on the first day in Committee, we scanned the horizon of lots of issues that were to be debated again. I do not intend to take noble Lords’ time by repeating what has been said in the debate tonight or previously.
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Having feared that there would be nothing new, I did not bank on the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno, and his contribution on the Welsh language. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Howell, will take that on board. I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Roberts; it is nice to see him in his place. Also, the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, described in an interesting way his desire to see a referendum because of the use of programme Motions. The Labour Government did not invent those changes in the House of Commons. The noble Lord may feel that they have been extended, but your Lordships will know that timetabling Motions have been around for some time.
Lord Higgins: The Labour Government have introduced programmes in a way that is totally different from what used to exist. Previously, if progress needed to be made on a Bill, for reasons of urgency or to avoid filibustering, there had to be a half-day debate to justify that. That was completely different from the automatic programming of everything that goes through.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I do not accept that it is completely different, although I accept that it is different. My point is that it is not new to have timetabling in the House of Commons. The noble Lord believes that this is substantially different. That is his view, which is absolutely fine. However, in your Lordships’ House we do not have that impediment to our deliberations. Some noble Lords may on occasion wish that we did, but I am not one of those.
We began by looking at what the constitution sought to do. My noble friend Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean set out clearly in a superb speech what a constitution is. Noble Lords who recall questions that I have answered in your Lordships’ House about a constitution will know that the fundamental essence of a constitution is, as my noble friend said, that everything that went before disappears and that it is a statement, as well as a fact, that we have created something new that is of deep and enormous significance. Some noble Lords may disagree with the decision that was taken but, rightly or wrongly, the Government decided that, because this was legally unprecedented—not just a new phenomenon but also a substantially different approach—there should be a referendum.
Noble Lords know what happened only too well. We have discussed what happened in the Netherlands and in France and what was subsequently determined by the Council. The constitution was withdrawn. It is defunct; it is no more. We will get into the dead parrot sketch with amazing ease if I continue with that. Instead, after some deliberations and delay, what came and now sits before your Lordships’ House is a treaty that is reminiscent of treaties that have gone before. It is, as my noble friend Lord Lea of Crondall said, an incremental treaty. That is the fundamental difference between the constitution and the reform treaty.
The noble Lord, Lord Blackwell, wrote to me on 8 May, as he said. I was grateful for the letter. I have not formally replied to him yet, but I will. When we look at the letter, we will see that the substantive point is that this is a fundamentally different proposition:
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Noble Lords have talked about other countries. The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, prayed in aid a number of quotations from European leaders. Noble Lords will know that in my speeches I refer only to statements made either here or in another place or to the work of committees. That is simply because I have 50 A4 sides of quotations and I am sure that other noble Lords have the same number. We could bandy them around all day, but it does not necessarily help us.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: Would it be helpful if the Minister were to write to those who have been involved and send those 50 sides of foolscap with these quotations that go against the quotations used by the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart? That might be helpful.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: It was A4, not foolscap. But no, it would not be of benefit. The noble Lord can find them; I am sure that they are scattered among the literature that he has in any event. I am afraid that we are all in danger of selectivity in our quotations and I do not think that they help. What matters are the deliberations on the Floor of your Lordships’ House and the work that is done in this Parliament. That is why I have stuck, as far as I possibly can, to that.
However, there is one fact that I wish to throw into this equation. Noble Lords who have used quotations—particularly the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart—from European leaders have said, “You see, that proves it. These people have said that it is the same”. But they—I believe there are nine countries—would have had referendums on the constitutional treaty. Poland, Portugal, Denmark, Spain, France, the Netherlands and Luxembourg did. If this was substantively or exactly the same, they would have had a referendum on it. But they did not. The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, may quote selectively from the words of European leaders, but the proof of the pudding is that, had they believed that this was exactly the same, there would have been a referendum. The only country that is having a referendum is Ireland. That is for constitutional reasons that nobody in your Lordships’ House has disputed, as far as I am aware.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I have been extremely good in giving way to the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, sometimes to the chagrin of other Members of the Committee. There is particularly, as the noble Lord knows, a lot of chagrin behind me. This is not the moment. I am happy to give way a little later, but let me get on. I will not be long.
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The Government believe, for the reasons that I have given, that the treaty is fundamentally different. I understand why noble Lords will not agree with that politically. There are those who believe that we should not have a referendum whatever happens, which is a perfectly reasonable position to hold. There are those who believe that anything that has the words “European Union” attached to it should in any event be opposed and that Britain should be “liberated”, which I think is the word that the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, would use. There are those who genuinely think that the treaties are the same. Sometimes there may be a bit of political expediency lurking in the undergrowth. Those are the different reasons. I do not think that I am standing here and convincing anybody, because we have been debating the undercurrent of this for weeks. I have a suspicion that noble Lords are pretty clear in their own minds.
The same is true of referendums. Some people think that they are a good idea, because the people get to choose in a particular way and get the chance to debate, as do political parties. There are those who think that referendums are a bad idea, because making these decisions should be the role of democratically elected representatives in fulfilling their obligations to the people who put them here and who pay them to fulfil that role. There are also those who say that is difficult to have in a referendum a question that makes sense. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, spoke about his next-door neighbour in France, who found it difficult to read through such a lengthy and complicated document and make up his mind without the benefit of much more information. That is reasonable, too. A little bit of political expediency is in there, too, because it is sometimes useful to want a referendum for other reasons.
The position of the Government is clear; we know exactly where they stand. We know exactly where the Liberal Democrats stand. I am still a little confused about where the Conservative Party will be post-ratification. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, will kill off once and for all—because it has been lurking in the undergrowth—the question whether the Conservative Party would accept ratification, because many of its members have a long history and tradition of support for and work in the European Union and I pay tribute to them. I will leave that for the noble Lord to address.
The amendment should be withdrawn. We have before us an important treaty that will help 27 member states to collaborate and work more effectively in the European Union. More important, it is time that we moved to ratify this treaty so that we can get on with the business of Europe, where there is much to do to support our citizens.
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Lord Howell of Guildford: I shall try to follow the noble Baroness’s example in being reasonably brief, and I promise that I shall be chagrin-free as well. I become quite exhilarated by hearing the clash of fine minds in this Chamber, struggling with completely different interpretations of the truth and either not agreeing or simply passing each other by like ships in the night.
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The noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, whose robust interventions I always enjoy, said that I was embarrassed by the evidence. But we are not flying in the face of that at all, because authority after authority—the Dutch state council excepted—has said the obvious; that is, that the treaty is a replica. I am a little embarrassed at hearing the contortions of people whom I greatly admire and even befriend in trying to tell us that black is white. Contrary to some people’s impressions, I can read, and I have read this treaty and the previous treaty; I even had a dip into the Dutch state council’s efforts. I have read a lot of other things as well—there are so many piles of documents that one would need a wheelbarrow to bring them into this Chamber. They all state that the sentences are the same. It is very difficult to be told by people whom one respects that they are different. We think that they are the same; we think that there was a promise; we think, as my noble friend Lord Waddington robustly said, that it is the role of your Lordships’ House to respect the manifestos of parties and see that they are not departed from, or try to do so in accordance with the Salisbury convention.
I am not sure that the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, was implying it, but we do not think that it is the treaty to end all treaties—on the contrary. Although the Prime Minister seemed to imply that it might be and that there would be no other institutional reform, it is perfectly obvious that there will be more institutional reform if the Bill and the treaty go through following all the passerelle provisions which we have debated and will do so again. Beyond that, there will also be other treaties. People are already talking about others to take Europe forward, backwards, sideways or whichever way one views it. Let us leave aside the earthquake effects—I admit that it is a decade or so away—of Turkey joining the European Union and succeeding Germany as its most populous country. Huge changes are ahead, and huge opportunities will arise for wise people with a clear vision of the kind of regional Union that Europe should be, of its wider role and of what part we should play in it to make an effective contribution.
The noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno, was absolutely right. I can stand here only as an ersatz Welshman. Someone once told me with glorious exaggeration that I was descended from the kings of Wales, but I cannot speak a word of the Welsh language. I felt very small in being put in my place by the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno, for getting a word wrong. I assure him that we will get that word right on Report and all further stages.
Overall, the difficulty for some of us, and the hardest thing to accept, is that we know that the treaty is a trick. We know that because so many of the European leaders—I am not going to quote them—have said it is a trick. The proof-of-the-pudding argument which the noble Baroness put forward just does not work. The reason other countries are not having referenda is precisely as the leaders of Europe have explained, because they have succeeded in making the treaty unintelligible and wrapping it up differently. Therefore, “This time it’ll be all right. We’ll get by without a referendum”. That is exactly what they have all said. It
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It has been asked how much one should use referenda to consult people in the modern times. They are tricky instruments. They should be used with the greatest care. But I think that there is a sort of failure to understand in some people’s minds, and in the minds of those who appear to be patronising about the “complexity” of the issue and the difficulties of consulting people today, that we are living in the internet age. We have had an information technology revolution. It is possible to mobilise 1 million signatures in an afternoon through an internet flash constituency or some other device. We are living in an interactive age where, night after night, the television tells you that you can speak back to what is coming out of the television set. This just is not the age when one could say in court, “My Lords, in the hills of Connemara they think of nothing else”, and get a good laugh. You cannot do that any more, because in the hills of Connemara now they are probably fully wired up with mobile telephones and interactive technology and they are all on the world websites discussing these issues in great detail, not only in Ireland but in England and across the whole of Europe and other continents as well.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: Would the noble Lord go so far as to agree with the emerging policy of the UK Independence Party on referenda, which is that given the great and growing unpopularity of our political class and our political system generally, we should think of adopting the Swiss system of referenda? Would that not earth again our democracy in the people and give them the chance of voting on a number of issues, and not just this one? After all, we have voted on a teddy bear or something in the north of England; we have voted on the north-east region, the Welsh thing and the Scottish thing. We have lots of referendums. Why do we not make it a more regular procedure?
Lord Howell of Guildford: I think not. As the noble Lord will understand, Switzerland has grown up as a special kind of entity. Indeed, all nations have grown up organically over the centuries in completely different ways. I admire enormously the Swiss and their genuine and deep democracy. One reason why they always find it difficult to join the European Union which surrounds them is that it would totally contradict the deepest aspects of their type of democracy. But I think that we should be careful about copying other people’s patterns too precisely. We should develop our own organic system of how we govern, and we have done so very well for the last 1,000 years or so.
I was going to say, finally, that—we must be frank—the reason why our views do not meet with each other is that there are much deeper feelings behind all this. The noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, always teases us, the Conservatives, by saying that we do not have any views about Europe. As a matter of fact, over the past 10 years of opposition my party has toiled away with all sorts of ideas and developments. I have written here that “my filing cabinet is full of plans for exactly
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The answer is that we have an enormous range of ideas. Obviously, they are not finalised to the precise moment because, as far as I know, unless the Prime Minister decides, we are not about to have an election, alas. After the Maastricht treaty we did have an election, and an offer for a referendum on the euro as well. If the offer now is to have an election, then our pressures for a referendum probably would greatly reduce. But that is not on offer as far as I know. We would be very happy to have that, but I do not think that that is what is proposed. I suspect that we are not going to see an election for another two years or so.
Instead, we say that the people should have their say. That is what was promised. That would uphold the dignity of Parliament, and perhaps restore the trust in Parliament as a whole as well as possibly the trust in the Government’s position, which does not look terribly healthy at the moment. That is why we have put forward this amendment.
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