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Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Browne of Belmont, L.
Bruce-Lockhart, L.
Burnett, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Cameron of Dillington, L.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Cathcart, E.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chadlington, L.
Chalfont, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Coe, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Cox, B.
Craigavon, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crawford and Balcarres, E.
Crickhowell, L.


11 Jun 2008 : Column 636

Cumberlege, B.
De Mauley, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dear, L.
Deech, B.
Denham, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Eccles, V.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Feldman, L.
Fellowes, L.
Ferrers, E.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Gilbert, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodlad, L.
Goschen, V.
Greenway, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Guthrie of Craigiebank, L.
Hameed, L.
Hamilton of Epsom, L.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Home, E.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howe, E.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
James of Blackheath, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Kalms, L.
Kilclooney, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkham, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Leach of Fairford, L.
Liverpool, E.
Lloyd-Webber, L.
Lucas, L.
Luce, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
Lyell of Markyate, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Macfarlane of Bearsden, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Mancroft, L.
Mar, C.
Marland, L.
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Montrose, D.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Moran, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Morrow, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Neill of Bladen, L.
Neville-Jones, B.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Nickson, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Ouseley, L.
Owen, L.
Paisley of St George's, B.
Palmer, L.
Palumbo, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Parkinson, L.
Patten, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Prior, L.
Quinton, L.
Ramsbotham, L.
Rawlings, B.
Reay, L.
Rees, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rogan, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Rowe-Beddoe, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Saatchi, L.
Sainsbury of Preston Candover, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Scott of Foscote, L.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selkirk of Douglas, L.
Selsdon, L.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheikh, L.
Shephard of Northwold, B.
Shrewsbury, E.
Simon, V.
Skelmersdale, L.
Skidelsky, L.
Slim, V.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Sterling of Plaistow, L.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.


11 Jun 2008 : Column 637

Sutherland of Houndwood, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taylor of Holbeach, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Tebbit, L.
Tenby, V.
Thatcher, B.
Trefgarne, L.
Trenchard, V.
Trimble, L.
Trumpington, B.
Ullswater, V.
Verma, B.
Vinson, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Walker of Worcester, L.
Warsi, B.
Wilcox, B.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Wolfson, L.
Wolfson of Sunningdale, L.
Young of Graffham, L.

NOT CONTENTS

Adams of Craigielea, B.
Addington, L.
Adonis, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alderdice, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Anderson of Swansea, L.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Armstrong of Ilminster, L.
Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B. [Lord President.]
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Best, L.
Billingham, B.
Bilston, L.
Blackstone, B.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Bowness, L.
Bradley, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Brett, L.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Broers, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Butler-Sloss, B.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Carter of Coles, L.
Chester, Bp.
Chidgey, L.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cobbold, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Condon, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Cotter, L.
Coussins, B.
Crisp, L.
Cunningham of Felling, L.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Darzi of Denham, L.
Davidson of Glen Clova, L.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Dearing, L.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
D'Souza, B.
Dubs, L.
Dykes, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elder, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Elystan-Morgan, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Ezra, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Freyberg, L.
Gale, B.
Garden of Frognal, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Giddens, L.
Golding, B.
Goodhart, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greaves, L.
Greenfield, B.
Greengross, B.
Grenfell, L.
Griffiths of Burry Port, L.
Grocott, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haskins, L.
Haworth, L.
Henig, B.
Heseltine, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hooson, L.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.


11 Jun 2008 : Column 638

Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Janvrin, L.
Jay of Ewelme, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Joffe, L.
Jones, L.
Jones of Cheltenham, L.
Jones of Whitchurch, B.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kerr of Kinlochard, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kinnock, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Laird, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lee of Trafford, L.
Leitch, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Low of Dalston, L.
Ludford, B.
Macaulay of Bragar, L.
McDonagh, B.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Malloch-Brown, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Mawson, L.
Maxton, L.
Meacher, B.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Mitchell, L.
Mogg, L.
Moonie, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Handsworth, L.
Moser, L.
Murphy, B.
Neuberger, B.
Newby, L.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Northover, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O'Neill of Clackmannan, L.
Oxburgh, L.
Parekh, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Patten of Barnes, L.
Paul, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prashar, B.
Prosser, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Quin, B.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees of Ludlow, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L.
Richard, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Robertson of Port Ellen, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rooker, L.
Roper, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B. [Teller]
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
St. Albans, Bp.
Sandberg, L.
Sandwich, E.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Sewel, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Slynn of Hadley, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Finsbury, L.
Soley, L.
Stevens of Kirkwhelpington, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Teverson, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Macclesfield, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomas of Winchester, B.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tonge, B.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Truscott, L.
Tugendhat, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Turner of Ecchinswell, L.
Tyler, L.
Vadera, B.
Vallance of Tummel, L.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Wallace of Tankerness, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Warner, L.
Warnock, B.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Waverley, V.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.


11 Jun 2008 : Column 639

Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Winston, L.
Woolf, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Wright of Richmond, L.
York, Abp.
Young of Hornsey, B.
Young of Old Scone, B.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

Noble Lords: Oh!

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, I want to repeat to noble Lords the figures for the vote because the Monitor is wrong. The Contents were 218 and the Not-Contents were 280.

Lord Bach: My Lords, I beg to move that further consideration on Report be now adjourned. In doing so I suggest that the Report stage begin again not before 8.40 pm.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I urge noble Lords to leave the Chamber because we are about the start the next debate.

Alcohol Labelling Bill [HL]

7.42 pm

Report received.

Clause 8 [Enforcement]:

Baroness Coussins moved Amendment No. 1:

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, before I speak to the amendment, perhaps I may remind the House of my various relevant interests as a former chief executive of the Portman Group and a current non-executive adviser on corporate social responsibility to various companies in the drinks sector. I am also a former member of the Alcohol Education and Research Council.

The purpose of the amendment is to make the penalties for breaching the labelling requirements that the Bill will impose less draconian. I tabled this amendment in Committee and it was fully considered, but I withdrew it once the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, agreed to give it further consideration. I believe that he is now happy to support it, and I hope that it will be uncontentious. I intend to speak briefly.

As the Bill stands, the penalties would be inconsistent and disproportionate. My amendment proposes that the penalty for a breach of the labelling requirements be limited to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, which would bring it in line with that applicable to the Food Labelling Regulations 1996. Any person found guilty of an offence under those regulations is liable simply to a fine not exceeding level 5. The kind of offences we are talking about in this Bill are entirely comparable with offences under the food

11 Jun 2008 : Column 640

labelling regulations, such as the provision of misleading nutritional information or selling food after its use-by date. Unlike the provisions of this Bill, no term of imprisonment attaches to the offences and no reference is made to conviction on indictment.

On proportionality, I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, now agrees that we are not dealing with a potential offence that should be capable of putting someone behind bars for two years, or indeed at all. A fine at the highest and most severe level, level 5, is appropriate, and any more than that might prove to be counterproductive in that it could be seen by the courts as being so disproportionate that convictions would be unlikely. That would render the Bill as tokenistic and in effect give drinks producers a licence to ignore it. If we are to have legislation along these lines, let it be realistic and workable. I beg to move.

Lord Monson: My Lords, in Committee I joined my noble friend in expressing disquiet at the draconian nature of the penalties proposed in the original Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, has always been extremely reasonable and accommodating during our deliberations, so if it is indeed the case that he will accept the amendment, that is excellent news. I look forward to hearing what he has to say.

Lord McColl of Dulwich: My Lords, I, too, support the amendment. A fine at level 5 on the standard scale, which is £5,000, is quite appropriate.

Baroness Thornton: My Lords, again I congratulate my noble friend on the progress that his Bill continues to make through the House. In the interests of not repeating arguments made in Committee, I do not intend to speak at length. My noble friend knows the Government’s position: we are monitoring the progress of the voluntary agreement with the industry on alcohol labelling and I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, was correct when she said in Committee that drinks producers are not as intransigent as the tobacco industry was. However, as we have said, if the agreement is not implemented, we will consult on legislation.

Lord Mitchell: My Lords, on reflection and having considered all the issues I, too, have come to the conclusion that banging someone up for two years for an infringement such as this is somewhat excessive, so I am happy to support the noble Baroness in her amendment.

Baroness Coussins: My Lords, I do not have anything to add to what has been said and I thank all noble Lords for their support.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

[The Sitting was suspended from 7.48 to 8.40 pm.]



11 Jun 2008 : Column 641

European Union (Amendment) Bill

Further consideration of amendments on Report resumed on Clause 8.

[Amendments Nos. 30 and 31 not moved.]

Lord Hunt of Wirral moved Amendment No. 31A:

(a) the Government has published an explanatory leaflet on the European Union and the Lisbon treaty;(b) copies of the leaflet have been distributed to members of both Houses of Parliament, to local authorities, public libraries and such other public information bodies as the Secretary of State thinks appropriate to facilitate the widest public knowledge of the Treaty;(c) copies of the leaflet are available on line and free on request for all UK citizens, and by freephone for visually impaired people;(d) a letter from the Prime Minister is set out with every leaflet explaining—(i) why the Treaty is of benefit to the United Kingdom;(ii) which provisions of the Treaty the United Kingdom has not adopted and why;(iii) how the Treaty differs from the draft EU Constitution and why, in his judgment, a referendum on the Treaty was unnecessary; and(e) a publicly accessible website has been opened on the No. 10 Downing Street website enabling members of the public to express and to view responses to the leaflet and to the Prime Minister’s letter.”

The noble Lord said: My Lords, we now move on but, in many ways, we are continuing the debate we have just concluded. When I listened to the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby, I was reminded that one of the problems over our membership of the European Union, as the noble Lord, Lord McNally, put it, is that we always seem to have been on the back foot. We have never taken head-on the concerns of the public, which have often been increased by what they may or may not read in the media. The amendment seeks to provide an opportunity for us to work out for ourselves how best we can deal with what the treaty of Lisbon really means, an issue which has been a real worry and concern for many members of the population. We got a sense of that in the previous debate.

I am delighted to see the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, in his place because I was moved to think of this amendment following an exchange I had with him in a previous debate. If I recall correctly, he had described a situation in which one of the voters in France—a neighbour of his, I think—had received, during the referendum campaign, a huge document that he had put in the waste-paper basket. The noble Lord and I had a bit of an exchange because he described a lot of the voters as neo-fascist and Trotskyites. I remonstrated with him at the time that he should not describe all my very good friends in France in such terms, because there were a number who were genuinely concerned. I felt that I overreacted, however, so this gives me a chance to say how sorry I am that I then described him as a bureaucrat.

I set myself a penance for that outrageous remark in that I decided, during our short break, to read the

11 Jun 2008 : Column 642

noble Lord’s brilliant editing of Sir Con O’Neill’s report on the negotiations of 1970 to 1972. I congratulate him on it. It took me back a long way into history, and it is a marvellous account. His concluding words in his editor’s foreword gave rise to this amendment, and I shall explain why. Describing the problem of Britain’s membership of the European Common Market, or however it was then described, he said that one of the problems is that there were so,

coupled with “some bad judgment”, and that this had,

There is a lot in that. We are often on the back foot, and there is a lot to be said for being much more positive about what we see as the benefits of the European Union. As my noble friend Lord Howell pointed out, we are constantly trying to improve the negotiations. We greatly regret that the Government adopted the negotiating stance that they took—but that has been dealt with in previous debates. We are looking now at how we can get across to people the benefits of European Union membership. I hope I carry the Benches on my right with me when I say it is about time that we fought back. There are so many scare stories that one reads in the press; I think the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, referred to the editorial in the Times.

8.45 pm

Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, I am happy to agree with the noble Lord. I just wish to ask who the “we” are in this respect. Does the “we” include the Conservative Party, or just some members of that party?

Lord Hunt of Wirral: My Lords, the noble Lord knows that I have a long track record, of which I am very proud, of being positive about our membership of the European Union. I joined the party that was the party of Europe, which it still is—it is just that Europe has developed in a way that many of us criticise. We would far prefer Europe to be developed in a way that made Britain feel “at ease with itself”, to quote the previous Prime Minister, John Major. We need a Britain at ease with its membership of the European Union.

How do we do that? As I say, I have found that the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, in referring to the fact that we are always on the back foot, had an important point. How do we ensure that we are able to get across the positive case? In 2004 Tony Blair decided to publish a leaflet. This speech was triggered by a warm hearted gesture on the part of the noble Baroness the Leader of the House. When she saw this amendment on the Marshalled List, she sent a large package round to my office containing the many documents that the Government have produced. In many ways she triggered quite a bit of what I am about to say, because she included the Guide to the European Union. I think that by including this she wanted to demonstrate that the Government were getting across a positive case for Europe. When I saw that document—which has a beautiful photograph of the Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, on the front cover and says that he wishes to explain how the treaty of Lisbon will allow,


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