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4.15 pm
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, I am grateful for the detailed questions that both noble Lords have put to me. The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, talked in his opening remarks about referendums and the bullying and cajoling of Ireland. All I can do, rather than taking the time of the House now, is refer him to the many, many answers that I gave earlier to these questions. I have done that bit.
It was important to finish our parliamentary process. Noble Lords who had, as I did, the privilege of being part of the debates last Wednesday will know that the House agreed that it was important that our Prime Minister should go into the discussions aware of the British parliamentary view and able to continue some of the detailed discussions to which the noble Lords, Lord Strathclyde and Lord Wallace of Saltaire, have referred today. My right honourable friend did indeed have bilateral meetings with both the Irish and the Czech Prime Ministers to talk about the current European situation and other issues on the European Council agenda. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, is pleased that he did so.
The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, kindly went through a number of issues that were of particular concern. I will try to cover as many of them as possible in the time allotted to me. We have had many discussions both in the committees of your Lordships’ House and on the Floor of your Lordships’ House about data sharing and its relevance and importance to tackling serious organised crime, people trafficking, terrorism and so on, and I will not repeat them. I will say, however, that it is right that the European Union should continue to discuss with its member states how best to ensure that we share information appropriately and with safeguards—this concerns the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, as it does us all—to enable us to continue to tackle these important issues.
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On property and wills, a relevant issue is understanding that members of our country who choose to own properties in other countries will be subject to the conditions on properties and wills of those countries. Noble Lords who have looked into this will know that there is quite a difference between the property laws and inheritance laws of France and those of the UK. It is therefore right and proper that, without suggesting in any way that we give up anything, we should have dialogue and discussion about how that might work as more and more people from this country choose to buy properties not only in France and Germany but further afield—for example, increasingly in Estonia.
I can tell the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, that we did not opt in to the divorce proposals. As he will know, after extensive consultation with the judiciary, we felt that it was not appropriate to do so because of our unique and distinct system. However, there are issues that we need to discuss, particularly when it comes to children and maintenance. We have signed up to the Hague process, which is very important. We can also veto any inheritance tax suggestions, as the noble Lord says. That, too, is important.
I said in the Statement and I have said before in your Lordships’ House that we have invited Professor Gallagher to review biofuels. I also alluded to this in my answer to questions about the results of the EULAC conference in Peru, which I was privileged to attend on behalf of my right honourable friend. It is important that we look sensibly and sensitively at food and fuel needs. As soon as we have the results of that review, I am sure that we will bring them to your Lordships’ House and another place to discuss them properly.
I will say little on Zimbabwe, as there will be a full Statement by my noble friend, who has led and discussed these issues right the way through the process that we are engaged in. I understand that he has been in discussion with other leaders today. I do not accept the tone of the suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, that somehow this Government have not done enough. I hesitate to ask but I am interested to know exactly what the noble Lord thinks that we should have been doing. To solve this problem, we have to work in partnership with the European Union. I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, about the number of times that opposition Members in both Houses have said, “We don’t like the European Union that much but, when it comes to these issues, why are you not doing more together?”. The action that we are seeking to take is the most effective that we can find. However, we all recognise how desperate the situation is. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister has done everything that he can think of. He continues on a daily basis to concern himself with trying to find ways of tackling these issues and—with support from the European Union and other world leaders—to put pressure on Zimbabwe to try to resolve this as peacefully as possible.
The Council conclusion makes it clear that we need further reform of the common agricultural policy to continue to improve the market orientation of agriculture. The budget review will also look at the CAP. The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, is right that there is
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There is—I address this point to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, in particular—a reinvigoration of what is called the Barcelona process for a union of the Mediterranean. I hope that we will see that work continue. We are pleased that the proposals on the eastern partnership are included in the conclusions. We are in favour of improvements to partnerships with all our European neighbours. This will help to balance the outreach south through the French-proposed Mediterranean union. I hope that the noble Lord will welcome that and see it as a greater benefit.
Finally, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Wallace. We talked quite a lot during the passage of the Bill about the fact that it is important to explain properly the work of the European Union, particularly where concerted action can play an important role. I am thinking not only about issues that affect us all across the European Union, such as those that I have already discussed, including serious and organised crime and so on, but about those areas that enable our citizens to live, work, travel and study in the European Union and enjoy the benefits of so doing.
4.22 pm
Lord Barnett: My Lords, the Statement covers many issues but I will just ask my noble friend about oil. I will not, unlike the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, ask her what she thinks the price will be in six months or even six days, because I doubt whether she, or anybody else, really knows at the moment. However, I gather that at Jeddah there was some difference of opinion about whether at least an element of the huge increase in the price of oil was caused by speculation. I understand that the Government themselves are not of the view that there has been speculation. While I doubt whether it would have been wholly the cause, does my noble friend have any evidence on whether speculation has or has not been part of the cause of the increase in the price?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, the critical issue is that we stay vigilant in this country and have the right approach to ensure that financial investment takes place with the right level of transparency. That is critical to the point that my noble friend is making. Across Europe there is an issue of looking at the regulatory approach to the commodities and derivatives markets, which again may have an impact on the issue that my noble friend raises.
Lord Elton: My Lords, I want to ask about the aid programme. In the announcement that the noble Baroness made about the agenda for action, her first paragraph on education can be read in two ways. The phrase,
can be read as increased by €4.3 billion or increased to €4.3 billion. That is a significant difference and I would like to know which is the case. Secondly, we come to health and the €8 billion. Is the investment programme as a whole a net grant, or are we, as has happened in the past, being given figures that include
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Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, inevitably the noble Lord has asked some detailed questions, to which I do not have all the facts at my fingertips. I shall write to him, particularly on how our additional £200 million is used, as I suspect that it may still be the subject of discussion to see how it would be most effective. My understanding is that the totals include Zimbabwe. However, depending on what happens, there is an additional commitment in the Statement to look further at what might be done. I will wait for my noble friend to talk further about that in the context of his Statement.
Lord Grenfell: My Lords, I declare an interest as the secretary of the All-Party Group on Croatia, because I will ask a question about enlargement. The presidency conclusions contain four and a half pages devoted to the western Balkans, including a detailed two-page declaration as the only annexe to the conclusions. However, there is no mention of Croatia. Before the Council met, the Commissioner in charge of enlargement, Olli Rehn, said that the result of the Irish referendum would have no effect on progress towards further enlargement. However, it appears that both France and Germany contest that and say that there can be no further enlargement until the necessary institutional reforms have been put in place to accommodate it.
Croatia has made significant progress in its negotiations towards accession and is now close to it. It is far ahead of any of the other western Balkan states. Would it not send a negative message to the whole region if Croatia’s progress to accession were put into cold storage or blocked at this stage? The Government may have taken a position on that; I wonder whether they have. Do they agree with France and Germany or feel that the negotiations should stay on course now that Croatia has come so close to accession? Maybe the noble Baroness the Lord President would prefer to write to me if she does not have the answer, but it is an issue on which we would like clarification.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, I shall be as clear as I can. As the noble Lord says, the Irish voting no should have no impact on the progress on technical negotiations for Croatia or for anybody else. Croatia set a target to complete negotiations in 2009; that target has been acknowledged by Commission President Barroso. I think—it is also the Government’s view—that enlargement is the greatest success of the European Union. We all know that it is an effective lever for peace and prosperity in the western Balkans and for a Turkey that is a partner in reform and positive regional influence. I hope that that says enough for the noble Lord to be in no doubt of the UK Government’s position on the issue.
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Lord Lea of Crondall: My Lords, the penultimate paragraph of the Statement states that the European agenda,
- “tackles effectively the issues that affect us all: the global financial crisis; the rising cost of food and fuel; combating climate change; and supporting people in the poorest countries in the world”.
Are not all those issues real ones for real people, whether in Ireland or in Burton upon Trent? However, it is difficult to get people to understand why the EU is relevant. If one could take party politics out of this, would there not be a strong case for doing more to explain to people why this is true? We have not succeeded in doing that. I do not think that this should be a party-political matter, but is it not incumbent on us to say why that statement is very true?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right. One of the issues that arose during the discussions on the treaty was how best we could make sure that people understand the benefits of our membership of Europe and the benefits of being able, as 27 countries—and, we hope, eventually more—to work collaboratively together, whether that be around issues such as trade and development or around issues of justice and security.
Lord Mackie of Benshie: My Lords, I was interested in the mention of the CAP and the sweeping away of all the restrictions that have been imposed for the past 20 years. That would be easy to do, but the CAP could be extremely useful and could do a very good job for something else. If it rains over the great plains of Australia, China or wherever, there will be surpluses of grain. Under the CAP, there is a lot of storage. To buy in times of surplus and to release in times of shortage would be a good function to promote.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, the noble Lord puts forward an interesting idea, of which I shall make sure that my colleagues in Defra are aware.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, I refer the noble Baroness to one sentence in the Statement. She said that the Government have not yet received a judgment in Mr Stuart Wheeler’s ongoing case and that when they have received it they will proceed to ratification. Let us suppose that the judgment is in Mr Wheeler’s favour and that his legitimate expectation of a referendum on the Lisbon treaty has not been met by the Government. How will the Government react? Will they proceed to ratification or will they grant a referendum? Secondly, on environmental policy, let us suppose that it becomes clear that, as many scientists believe, global warming has been caused almost wholly by the activity of the sun and hardly at all by human CO2 emissions and that, therefore, the planet may now be cooling down. What effect would that have on our environmental policy and that of the EU? The noble Baroness looks at me askance, but there are thousands of scientists who believe that now.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, in answer to the noble Lord’s first question, I will not venture into hypothetical questions about a court judgment
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Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, on the revised EU reform treaty, which people are working on at the moment, have the Governments of the member states been informed that, in accordance with Article 6, our constitution means that our participation, if we participate, is subject to ratification in Parliament? It is not the same qualification as the Irish vote, but it is the same concept. Are the member states aware that that is our position in law?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, I think that I understand the noble Lord to say that, should there be any kind of amendment to the European treaty as it currently stands, that would be subject to parliamentary processes. We discussed in some detail on Wednesday that, if there were a new amended treaty, it would indeed have to come before your Lordships’ House and another place. I hope that that clarifies the position.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, the second page of the presidency’s conclusion refers to the area of freedom, security and justice. Presumably justice means obeying the law, even laws that you do not like. Is it just that there should be any doubt at all, following the Irish referendum, which said no to the Lisbon treaty, that the treaty should continue to be ratified instead of being declared dead? That surely is not justice. Various reports in the newspapers, both yesterday and today, suggest that the Irish are being put under great pressure from the various countries of the EU, particularly France and Germany. Apparently, the Irish are being threatened with expulsion from the EU unless they go back and reverse their decision to say no to the Lisbon treaty. I would like the noble Baroness to tell me, and I am sorry to take a little bit of time about this—
Lord Richard: There is not time, my Lords.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, there is time, as no one else was standing. The noble Lord, Lord Richard, was not standing when I got up and he is only wasting time by heckling me. He ought to know better. Let me come back to the question that I was going to ask the noble Baroness. Will she assure me that the British Government are not involved in any pressure being put on the Irish people to reverse their decision about the Lisbon treaty?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, my right honourable friend attended the two days with my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary and there is
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Lord Richard: My Lords, I wonder whether my noble friend the Leader of the House shares my amazement at the fact that the one thing that the representative of UKIP sitting on the Back Bench over there and, indeed, the representative of UKIP sitting on the Bench behind me—
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, I am not a member of UKIP.
Lord Richard: My Lords, I can only say that that puts me in mind of an old American professor whom I used to know, who said, “If he is not a member, he is cheating them of their dues”. Does my noble friend share my amazement at the fact that various people in this House who are critical of the British position on the treaty seem to be saying that we should take a position different from that which the Irish Government are taking? The Irish Government seem to be getting set on a clear policy. If that is their policy, surely we should allow them to do it.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, my noble friend is right. It is for the Irish to determine the Irish position and it is for the British Government to determine the British position, and so on across 27 member states. I could not agree more. For the record, I should add that the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, is not formally a member of UKIP.
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