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23 Jun 2008 : Column 1260
Lord Shutt of Greetland: My Lords, last week we heard about election observers who were lined up to be sent to Zimbabwe, and we discussed their paucity. It seems to me that observance should still take place. Does the Minister have any insight about whether those election observers will now observe what is happening, or will they be banished?
Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, more than 200 international observers have arrived in the country. Some of them are expected to report on what they see to a meeting of SADC leaders later this week and possibly to the AU summit at the weekend. It is important to keep as large an international observer presence in the country as possible because this violence is not at an end, as is clearly demonstrated by the fact that Morgan Tsvangirai had to seek asylum in the Dutch embassy this afternoon.
Lord Acton: My Lords, I add my compliments to those offered by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby, and my noble friend Lady Jay of Paddington, to my noble friend, who has proved such a great asset in regard to Zimbabwe since he came to this House and to government. He pointed out how crucial SADC is in the present situation. I have already described him as a great asset; I cannot do better than that. Will he consider visiting South Africa in person—not forthwith, because that is a dangerous word, but very soon—and as many other SADC countries as possible to co-ordinate policy and to use his own standing with SADC to achieve something better from South Africa?
Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. Rarely has a Minister received so many congratulations when his policy has failed to deliver results. I hope that my noble friends will be as generous when we finally bring this terrible regime to an end and Zimbabwe gets the Government it deserves. As I reported in the Statement, I, the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister are in frequent touch by telephone with all the leaders of southern Africa. It is our judgment at this point that that discreet, private contact is more effective than a formal trip to the region, but I will certainly keep it in mind. My noble friend has my word that, the moment it seems opportune and unlikely to backfire, I will be on the plane.
Lord Blaker: My Lords, there is one person who, by virtue of his position in his own country and its geographical situation, could have prevented this whole terrible saga if he had acted decisively and with determination years ago, and that is President Mbeki of South Africa. He could have prevented the whole thing happening. Why did he not do it? It was he who said that Africa’s problems should be solved by Africans, so the rest of the world backed off. I remember it happening a few years back; we did what he suggested.
The role that he has played has not been helpful in any way. His quiet diplomacy became a sort of mirage behind which a lot of things were suggested to be happening, when not very much was actually happening. If people agree, we should bear that in mind, and we should in some way show that this is our belief; it is
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Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Blaker, deserves some of the commendations that I have received today, because he has been at least as dedicated a supporter of change in Zimbabwe. I hope that there will be a further opportunity one day to exchange compliments when our policy has succeeded.
Obviously, here in this House and elsewhere, we have expressed our frustrations with the lack of results from President Mbeki’s mediation, but this is probably not the moment to go further than that. He has once more inserted himself into the dialogue in Zimbabwe, and he is part of various proposals that are being made. We have to see how that goes. We are very determined to see fuller involvement by the AU and the UN to make sure that a fuller set of players is engaged in trying to bring change in the country.
Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, may I take the Minister back to two questions that the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, put to him earlier? The reports that said that Morgan Tsvangirai has been taken into refuge in the Dutch embassy in Harare also said that more than 60 people, including women and children, had been arrested at the MDC headquarters today. What do we know about their safety and about the events that occurred earlier? Can the Minister tell us more about that?
The noble Lord, Lord Howell, also asked about a referral to the International Criminal Court. Is the evidence that is already available being systematically compiled with that view in mind? The noble Lord will recall the example—he mentioned it earlier—of the six year-old boy who was incinerated only a week ago because he was in the home of his father, who was an opposition politician. Since then, there have been appalling reports of the systematic mutilation of members of the opposition, with many atrocities occurring. Surely, enough evidence is there already for a referral to the ICC, as the noble Lord intimated.
Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, on the first point, we are trying to follow the fast-changing developments in Harare. I cannot comment on people being removed from the MDC headquarters, because I do not know the facts. We do know that Mr Tsvangirai is secure in the Dutch embassy. Both events make clear that the violence has not stopped but is continuing, and the need for monitoring and documenting it for later action remains as important as ever.
On the second point about the ICC, I did not answer that point earlier only because it is a complicated and long answer. Because Zimbabwe is a non-signatory, it would require a referral by the Security Council. My view is that that is by no means impossible, but it is likely to come only at the end of a process where the Security Council despairs of an early, speedy political resolution of the issue and feels obliged to move to an ICC indictment. Even without an ICC indictment, the possibility of European arrest warrants and other
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Lord Lea of Crondall: My Lords, on the last point, about the relationship between the Security Council and the various members—China, Russia, and so on—does my noble friend recall that in the African Union-European Union communiqué from Lisbon at the end of last year, there was a lot of strong language about governance and criminality? There was much less of such language in the communiqué from the African Union and the Chinese. Would not a campaign to take this to the Security Council, with a view to a reference to the ICC, be a way of engaging with the Chinese on this question? When the vice-premier was here, he said he thought that that would be a useful way of establishing a better dialogue on Africa between the European Union and China.
Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, let us be clear: in the case of Darfur and Sudan a similar path had to be followed for ICC indictments, and it happened. It is not an impossible path to proceed down. There is a possibility of winning Chinese acquiescence as well as Russian acquiescence—to take the two countries which have at times shown diffidence and resistance to these approaches. We have had success with China on Zimbabwe. As noble Lords may remember, I was able to secure a commitment from the Chinese last year in Beijing to cease development assistance to Zimbabwe. This year we received a commitment from the Chinese that the arms on the Chinese arms shipment provided by a state company would not be unloaded but would instead be returned to China rather than used for internal repression in Zimbabwe. So this is not a dialogue of the deaf; it is a dialogue where we are making progress. But my noble friend is correct. We need to make a lot more progress to try and align China with our vision of good governance and human rights in Africa.
Lord Kilclooney: My Lords, earlier today the Prime Minister said that no one should recognise the regime in Zimbabwe. If the European Union acts in unity on that policy, would it mean the closure of the Dutch embassy, and thus put at risk the leader of the opposition?
Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, the noble Lord makes an extremely good point. It is a reason why—as noble Lords may remember from the case of Kenya at the beginning of this year—we do not recognise Governments, we recognise states. When there is a Government whose legitimacy we do not accept, we make it clear that we do not accept that Government as representative of the people of the country and therefore that we will not do business with them. That is the formula that we are seeking here. I would just ask whether, in addition to the case of Mr Tsvangirai and the Dutch embassy, we would really want to close our embassy and leave the 14,000 British nationals in Zimbabwe unprotected?
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The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, first, can the Minister confirm that there are now more Chinese than British nationals in Zimbabwe? Secondly, he said that the heavy arm of the law may very well pick up the people in Mr Mugabe’s regime when they come to Europe. Some of us heard that with a little cynicism, because Mr Mugabe seems to go to the rest of Europe with impunity. He has been there recently and has been welcomed.
Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, I am sure that the noble Earl is right: there are certainly more Chinese than British citizens in Africa. I therefore suspect that there are more Chinese in Zimbabwe. There are 1 million Chinese in Africa today.
On the second point, it is worth saying that President Mugabe was not in Europe on a state visit to a European capital; he was there under the same provision which has allowed Fidel Castro, Yasser Arafat and President Ahmadinejad to go to UN headquarters in New York at a time when they were not on good terms with the United States. It is just part of the terms and conditions—the agrément—of UN offices. As a membership organisation available to all countries, the heads or official representatives of those countries can travel through the national territory of the country where the UN headquarters is located to attend a meeting. So please do not believe that there was support in that case. At the EU Lisbon meeting at the end of last year, there was a judgment that letting him come was a lower profile way of handling the situation than having a confrontation around it. It was not necessarily a judgment we shared, which is why our Prime Minister did not attend the meeting.
Lord Morris of Handsworth: My Lords, I, too, join noble Lords in welcoming the Statement. I also wish to record my recognition of the Minister’s work over a long period on finding some sort of solution and a degree of international support.
In the light of the MDC’s decision not to contest what will be a bogus election, the thoughts of this House are not so much on the Government of Zimbabwe as for the people of Zimbabwe. The current situation is damaging not just the people of Zimbabwe but the reputation of the international community, which is seen as impotent and over-reliant on South Africa, for example. However, we have drawn some strength from the way in which we as a country have dealt with African dictators in the past. When Idi Amin evicted the Ugandan Asians this country gave support and, in many instances, shelter to those who lost their homes, their community and their citizenship.
Lord Bach: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt my noble friend, but I wonder whether he could come to his question.
Lord Morris of Handsworth: My Lords, I will do so. I want particularly, as we celebrate refugee week, to commend the statement of the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, that we should afford to Zimbabwean refugees at least the right to have a job and to support their families.
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Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, I confirm to my noble friend Lord Morris that we will look into this to see what can be done. I thank him for his long and hard work on this same issue of Zimbabwe and particularly on workers’ rights.
The Lord Bishop of Southwark: My Lords, from these Benches—
Lord Bach: I am sorry, my Lords, but questions have to end now. The 20 minutes are up.
Pensions Bill
5.23 pm
House again in Committee on Clause 13.
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of Tara): Before calling the first amendment, I have to announce an amendment to the figures announced for the Division earlier today. The number of noble Lords voting Content was 53, not 55.
Baroness Turner of Camden moved Amendment No. 44:
The noble Baroness said: I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 46 and 49, which are also in this group and cover much the same point.
Clause 13, which Amendment No. 44 seeks to amend, provides for a review of the qualifying earnings band. It is right that the band is reviewed, but the clause appears to restrict revaluation to considerations of whether the bands have kept their value. I would like to see a wider power to vary the bands that would allow changes to be made for any reason. This would allow other issues to be considered, such as whether the new system band was properly serving the low paid or those with higher pay. There also needs to be periodic reviews of whether the proposed contribution levels are good enough to provide an adequate pension. Experts consider a lifetime 15 per cent contribution as necessary for most people to meet their preferred retirement income. While the proposed contribution levels have been carefully struck as a compromise between different interest groups in the debate, it should not be forgotten that the objective must always be to provide a decent retirement income. Pension provision is about the future. It is about provision for our children, our grandchildren and even our great-grandchildren. Nobody knows what the future may hold. It therefore seems right and proper that there should be a degree of flexibility to cope with unforeseen events.
Perhaps I should declare an interest. As noble Lords will know, I am a former member of the TUC General Council. This amendment was suggested to me by the TUC. As my noble friend the Minister knows, the TUC supports the Bill and wants to see it on the statute book as soon as possible. Nevertheless, as far as this clause is concerned, it is felt that there is a case for rather more flexibility. I therefore beg to move.
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Baroness Noakes: I shall make just a couple of brief comments. It is important to recognise that the band of earnings represents part of the compromise and the consensus on the whole pensions settlement and that any radical departure from that may undermine the consensus. The limits, particularly the upper limit, have the effect of controlling employers’ costs as well as ensuring that the personal accounts scheme stays on the target market and does not compete unduly with alternative pension provisions. We completely understand that the band may need to be changed occasionally, but I am not sure that the noble Baroness’s amendment, which does not even have the affirmative procedure attached to it, is the right way of going about things. As such changes could be quite significant, we see primary legislation as perhaps the right way of realigning the scheme.
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: We are probably a little more sympathetic to the noble Baroness’s amendment, but I would like to hear the Minister’s reply before committing myself any more firmly.
Lord McKenzie of Luton: I thank my noble friend for this amendment. The reforms that we have discussed have been structured to set a median earner with a solid state entitlement on course to achieve an income in retirement of around 45 per cent of their working life earnings, in line with the recommendation of the Pensions Commission. The qualifying earnings band establishes the link between working life earnings and pension saving. As the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, said, this is part of the consensus that was reached. Having made this important link, we need to maintain it. We will do this by reviewing the limits of the band every year to see whether they have maintained their value. Depending on the outcome of that review, we expect to uprate the limits in line with changes to average earnings.
Ensuring that the limits of the qualifying earnings band keep pace with changes to average earnings will ensure that the contributions of jobholders also keep pace. This is important if we are to maintain the balance between working life income and income in retirement. Uprating the lower limit of the qualifying earnings band in line with changes to average earnings will also avoid enrolling increasing numbers of workers on very low earnings, for whom state provision already offers high income-replacement rates. It is crucial that we retain the flexibility necessary to ensure that the earnings band is uprated appropriately. As my noble friend said, pensions are a long-term issue. However, the clause as drafted already provides that flexibility. I do not believe that these amendments would provide any additional flexibility when it comes to reviewing and uprating the limits of the qualifying earnings band. Accordingly, I ask my noble friend to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Turner of Camden: I thank my noble friend the Minister for that response and I note his reference to flexibility, which is what the amendment is all about. I am also appreciative of the fact that this is part of the general consensus—something that the
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Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
5.30 pm
Baroness Noakes moved Amendment No. 45:
The noble Baroness said: In moving Amendment No. 45, I shall also speak to Amendments Nos. 47 and 48. The previous group of amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, sought to give the Secretary of State power to amend at will the thresholds around the earnings band. My amendments are much more modest and are designed to ensure that the Secretary of State does not let the value of the earnings threshold fall behind any increases in the level of earnings.
The Minister has explained that it is the Government’s policy to uprate the earnings band in line with earnings; he said it on a previous day in Committee and he said it a moment ago. It would have been fairly easy to have provided that in the Bill, but the Bill does not do that; it gives the Secretary of State carte blanche to decide how to revalue the band, whether or not in line with earnings.
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