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A number of speakers, including my noble friend Lord Harris of Haringey, mentioned how close we are to the anniversary of 7/7. I ought to put on record that I am sure that all of us in the Chamber remember the dead of that event, all their loved ones who still suffer, and the pain and suffering that so many of the survivors are still going through. These things last for ever. I know that well from the loss of my own ship and those who were injured and lost. I have to say that it is sometimes very easy for legislators to forget victims. I am sure that we will not be guilty of that within this Chamber.
If I have a fault, it is probably that I tend more towards trying to favour someone who is likely to be a victim than otherwise. My noble friend Lord Howarth of Newport made a point which is always a problem for those in power and to which it is sometimes quite difficult to find an answer. He asked whether it is better that we should risk hundreds, nay thousands, of casualties rather than risk the liberty of one person for a few days. I know that it is not as simple as that, but it is an interesting concept and something that one has to think about when one is in power. It is extremely difficult.
Much has been achieved in our efforts to tackle terrorism. We have had notable successes in ensuring that those who wish to destroy our way of life are brought to justice. I know that all noble Lords will applaud the excellent work of our security and intelligence agencies, police and prosecutors in that regard; a number of noble Lords have done.
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I was taken to task by a number of people, including my noble friend Lord Joffe and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, for saying that we were safer. After a year in post, with all the extra resources and opportunities that I have had to look at the issue, I would be shocked if one felt that we were less safe. However, that does not mean that we are not still at great risk. The threat is still severe. The cleverness and cuteness of the people we are against gets ever greater. That is why matters are getting so much more complex and harder. They understand these things; they learn from when we make mistakes and from things such as intercepts—I shall come to those later—which is why we have to move down this route.
Talking briefly about the work of the agencies, I welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller. I worked alongside her in several guises for many years. The first time we came across each other was in the 1980s, but probably the longest period we had together was when I was chief of defence intelligence and the vice-chairman of the Joint Intelligence Committee. I used to see her regularly then because she was at that stage the deputy head of the Security Service, I think. Her non-contentious maiden speech will set standards and interesting precedents for the future, and no doubt we will see that as time unfolds; I look forward to it. Her speech was good and succinct. She pointed out that she had an intelligence background. The Security Service is not deeply involved with things such as pre-charge detention; those are matters for prosecutors and the police. It is not its area of expertise or involvement. When I used to work with her, we did not always see eye to eye. I do not now; I disagree with her and think that she is wrong over pre-charge detention, but I defend her right to be wrong to the hilt.
Legislation plays a small but important part in our counterterrorist strategy. I again use the allusion of one arrow in a quiver full of measures aimed at terrorism, but it is a useful way of seeing it. Those measures include important work on preventing radicalisation and violent extremism, helping to protect critical infrastructure and so on. We should talk a little more about the preventive side. We have got together the most comprehensive and all pervasive preventive strategy of any nation in the world. We are world leaders on that. We have seen how important it is. One issue that I discussed with our Prime Minister before I came into government was that we had to do something in the area, because only that area will excise the cancer of terrorism and let us move forward. As has been said by some speakers, you cannot arrest or protect your way out of the issue. I have given an opportunity for Members of the House to hear where we have gone on the preventive side and I make the offer that, if anyone else would like to hear that, they should please come along and listen to it. The noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, might make good use of that; he would find it valuable. Some of the things that he said showed that he did not quite understand how far we had gone.
As part of that, it is important to realise that we are talking and engaging with the Muslim community. There is a great tendency to say “the Muslim community” as though it is one thing. It is not; it is very disparate,
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Giving the law enforcement agencies the legal powers that they need is important. The importance has been demonstrated, again, by the excellent contributions to today’s debate. Clearly, pre-charge detention is the issue. As I said earlier, I have been looking at this for almost a year, probably in more detail than most people. It is absolutely clear to me that, for all the reasons that I have given, sooner or later, more than 28 days’ detention will be needed to charge suspects in terrorist cases. We may hope that it will not be the case, but I fear that everything suggests otherwise. It is unfortunate—and I will mention it at this stage—that many noble Lords seem not to have given much weight to the views of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, the independent reviewer of terrorism. The noble Lord, Lord Monson, and the noble Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green, pointed this out. The noble Lord, Lord Carlile, has had greater visibility in this topic than almost anybody else and has no axe to grind. What he says is important and should be looked at and valued.
There is no doubt that all the other measures that we have put in place, such as the threshold test and the new offence of acts preparatory to terrorism, together with the use of post-charge questioning and, possibly in the future, intercept as evidence will assist. These were referred to by many speakers. I have been impressed by the detail that people have gone into and their depth of knowledge. However, I fear that 28 days will not be sufficient, and that is not a risk that we can take. I certainly agree with the noble Lord, Lord Imbert, that using a spurious minor charge is not the UK’s way of doing business, and it will not work. We cannot risk having to release a potentially dangerous suspect simply because the police have run out of time. That would not be a responsible approach. Equally, I do not want the police to delay moving against a plot, awaiting some solid evidence because they fear that they will not get some case. The results of that could be catastrophic. As an aside on that, interestingly, my advice from the police clearly differs from the great body of police advice that seems to go to large chunks of this House. At times, it seems to be somewhat different.
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What if my assessment is wrong? The worst that can happen regarding this clause is that nothing will happen. That is, there will be no request to extend pre-charge detention beyond 28 days. The impact will be zero. However, if this clause is removed the worst that can happen is that a non-charged terrorist will go on and spoil some investigation, or be involved in the murder of perhaps hundreds of our people. I know which I would prefer. I would prefer to have legislation that is never used than risk having none when it is needed for the safety of our country. That is why the reserve power that we propose in the Bill will not extend the pre-charge detention limit now, but in the future, and only then in exceptional circumstances, where there is a compelling operational need to do so. I say again that it is far better for us to legislate now on such a basis than to wait until those circumstances arise and then be forced to legislate in the middle of a crisis. We have done that before and, I have to say, we are not good at doing it because we often get the wrong answers.
There was talk about what real evidence is, and what the evidence for this need is. People were talking in terms of judicial evidence. We had no judicial evidence to extend beyond seven days, but we found that it was needed. We have had to use it. We had no evidence, in those terms, to extend beyond 14 days, but it was needed. In every arm of government and in the commercial world one has to make serious decisions based on predictions and trends. It cannot be avoided. Indeed, it is only the privilege of those not in power to be pedantic about such things, as they have no ultimate responsibility for the wrong decision.
It is also wrong to say that all the safeguards in place are unworkable. ACPO has certainly stated that it believes they are workable. The safeguards were built in after talking with people across parties about what we should do to safeguard people and look after them. There will be a great opportunity in Committee and on Report to test their applicability and see whether they need tweaking. They were put there in good faith, and ACPO has said that they are workable.
The noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones, said that we do not want to do the terrorists’ job for them. That remark could have been taken straight from my script as I have been going around the country talking to people, particularly in areas of work on protection. We must not do that. That is the Government’s line. We need to be able to live our lives, work, travel and have fun. We must not do things that stop any of those things happening, so I could not agree more.
Baroness Neville-Jones: My Lords, we appear to agree on the principle of not doing the terrorists’ work, but the sentiment in this House is two to one against the Government’s expressed position on 42 days. I suggest to the Minister that it might be right and sensible at this stage to withdraw the proposal, otherwise I fear that we will waste a good deal of the House’s time before the Government are defeated in a vote.
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Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, that would be totally bonkers. I do not know where the two-to-one prediction comes from. I would not go down that route.
My noble friend Lord Ahmed raised my so-called U-turn. We had a bet in my office about who would mention it. There were many likely candidates, but he was not one of them, so I was a little surprised, and no one wins the money. I felt it was my duty to look closely at whether there was any other way to resolve some of these problems. I looked at them. I looked at throwing resources at them, at whether there was some other method of legislation and at whether there was some way round them. I also wanted to ensure that there were proper safeguards in place. At that stage, I did not want 56 days on the statute book. I wanted something that came into force only if we needed it and that had all the safeguards. I am happy that we are now in the right ballpark with a few minor amendments. I am happy with that. My noble friend Lord Ahmed does not know me if he thinks that someone can sit on me and make me do a U-turn. He has a lot to learn about me if that is what he believes. I was rather surprised by his comment.
My noble and learned friend Lord Falconer raised the threshold test. It has been available since 2004, which is before the debates on the 2006 Act. It is a useful tool, but it cannot be used in every case. It does not mean that we can charge on the basis of reasonable suspicion. We could not charge someone if all we had on him was intelligence material, no matter how compelling it might be. The threshold test does not replace the full-code test used by prosecutors. All it means is that in some cases we can charge using a lower threshold if we are reasonably certain that sufficient admissible evidence will become available in a reasonable amount of time to meet the full test. That is why the threshold test has proved useful at the current 28-day limit and why it could be equally useful at, say, 29 or 30 days, but it simply does not remove the need to extend pre-charge detention altogether.
My noble friends Lady Ramsay of Cartvale, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Robertson and other noble Lords talked about intercept as evidence. I do not want to go into that at great length because it is late and we will have a chance to talk more about it. We are taking the Chilcot report ahead swiftly and with consensus. It has nine tests. I reiterate that what we get from intercept are the crown jewels. We have to be certain that we do not give something away. The people who wish to destroy our way of life and kill us are getting cuter and cuter and they pick up these things, so we have to be extremely careful. It is an area in which we hope we might be successful because there might be occasions when it will help, but it is not a silver bullet and will not resolve the issue of pre-charge detention. I say to my noble friend Lady Ramsay of Cartvale that we are listening very carefully to what she has been saying about this in the context of the coroners’ courts. I am not going to go into detail on the coroners’ courts. It is an issue of great complexity, and I can see that the House wishes to have a great debate on it. There will be opportunities in Committee and on Report to do that.
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In terms of international comparisons—
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, given the nature of the questions from both Front Benches and around the House, could the Minister give a little more detail on why this could not wait until the Coroners Bill?
Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, that is difficult to answer because I would tread into areas where I may say things that I should not. A case and a possible case are coming up that could put us at great risk of breaking Article 2 of the ECHR, which is why we are being forced down this route. I think that we will be able to expose this further in debate later, but it is difficult to do so at the moment.
My noble friend Lord Soley rightly said that international comparisons are not of any value or of any use. I have talked with colleagues in various nations. Although it might look on the face of it that they have benign legislation, it is quite extraordinary how long some of these countries seem to put people away without any proper judicial oversight. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Dear, talked about a few of them, but there is no point in trying to make comparisons because this is absolute apples and oranges. Doing such comparisons does not add anything. As I say, I am glad to be in this country when I look at what is done in some others that I come across. I also agree with my noble friend Lord Brett when he says that the noble Lord, Lord Dear, probably goes too far to compare what we are doing with Nazi Germany and what it did with the Jews.
Lord Dear: My Lords, for the sake of the record, I was not comparing Nazi Germany with this country. I was merely giving an illustration of how it is easy to go down a slippery slope of justifying steady incursions and encroachments in civil law and civil liberties and getting into a position where it is impossible to defend the arrival point. I was not saying that we are like Nazi Germany and it should not be imputed that I was.
Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord if I got the wrong end of that, but there has been reference to Mugabe, Guantanamo and internment in Northern Ireland. While I accept that one has to be careful about not going down the slippery slope, I think that we are a long way from there. In my work, I find it fascinating that alleged non-British terrorists fight tooth and nail to avoid being sent to any other country in the world, which leads me to believe that our country is not that bad. In this country, it is marvellous that we can put so much concern and effort—it is right that we do—into a measure that has so many safeguards in place. I wish that many other countries would do that. I know that there has been a lot of talk about—
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, the noble Lord has not dealt with my point that the Explanatory Notes give no clue about the Government’s justification under the convention for what they propose on inquests. Can he write to noble Lords who have taken part in
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Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I most certainly will do that. I was about to mention the talk on the Clapham omnibus. Clearly, we have to think very carefully about legislation but, equally, we must be aware of what people think about these things. It is interesting that in my position—I think that a lot of my friends still think that I am a Conservative or something—I get a lot of input from middle England. Certainly, a number of those people think that we need to look at this closely. I live in Hackney, so I get quite a good input from my neighbours, too. I have had a lot of building work done and know quite a lot of builders, so I have also been getting the Essex man input. I have to say that there seems to be a general consensus. That is a small group, but one must take it into account.
The noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, referred to the debate on control orders running from 11 am on one day to 7 pm on the next. We might do longer than that as this Bill moves through the House and I shall practise building my stamina for when that happens.
Many speakers have remarked that the issues we have been debating should be above party politics. In most cases, though I fear not all, the debate has shown that to be true of this House. As the Bill proceeds, I am sure noble Lords will continue to approach it in that way. There are many points that I have not been able to address and I apologise for that but we will have a chance to debate all of these things in Committee and at Report. I have been not a little surprised to find that the media feel that they can predict the outcome of the debate in your Lordships’ House so easily. Clearly I hope that they will be proved wrong. The last time I embarked on what was fanfared by the media as a forlorn hope was during the retaking of the Falkland Islands.
When it comes to dealing with terrorism, my view is straightforward. We cannot simply hope for the best. That is only possible for those who are not in power and have no responsibility. We must have plans in place that mean we can cope with the worst and the proposals in the Bill in general, and those on pre-charge in particular, do just that. I therefore commend this Bill to the House.
On Question, Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) (No. 2) Bill
10.37 pm
Brought from the Commons; read a first time, and ordered to be printed.
Criminal Evidence (Witness Anonymity) Bill
Brought from the Commons; read a first time, and ordered to be printed.
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Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, before I adjourn the House, I should give an enormous thanks to all noble Lords who have participated in today’s debate. This is one of the most important issues that we debate in this House and I apologise on behalf of the Government for the fact that it has arrived a little late in the Session. However, I look forward to October and November when we will discuss it in Committee for, I would imagine, five or six days.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords, I look forward to taking part in October and November. Will we be going into December as well? Has it been announced when the state opening is going to be held?
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, state opening has indeed been announced. It will take place on 4 December. I always get that date wrong. Forgive me; it will take place on 3 December. But I assure your Lordships that debates on this particularly important
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Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, can the noble Baroness tell us when we are likely to be dealing with the 42-day issue? That is the matter which has been the most contentious today. Will the noble Baroness be putting that to the fore of the Bill or will it come at a much later stage?
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I imagine that our debate on 42 days will take place on the second day of Committee, which will probably be the second week back in October.
- House adjourned at 10.40 pm
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