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We continue to impress on the Iranian Government the need for transparency in all its nuclear activities. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord McNally, on the importance of the continuing dialogue with Russia. The meeting between the Prime Minister and the Russian President was important. The discussion was helpful, in that everything that could be raised was raised, but I agree that there need to be ongoing dialogues.
12.14 pm
Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, how can we be assured that the monitoring committee responsible for monitoring the financial sanctions in the case of Rhodesia will be any more effective than the monitoring committee that was responsible for monitoring sanctions against Iraq? That turned out to be utterly useless, as proven in the report of the Volcker commission on the huge and widespread abuse of the sanctions regime?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, on monitoring sanctions, it will be important to pick up what my noble friend has said and look at what has been successful in the past. I do not pretend to have detailed knowledge of which of the sanctions regimes has been the most successful, but it will be very important to make sure that this is an effective method.
Lord Lawson of Blaby: My Lords, the Leader of the House will recall that the Prime Minister’s Statement, which she kindly repeated, explicitly said that the
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Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, the noble Lord takes a different view from me on the subject and I hesitate to join him in debate at this point. It is important to ensure that in everything we do to protect the environment, we are mindful of our economic needs and our desire to continue strong economic growth. It has always been our view that these desires are not incompatible; the question is to make sure that everything is done efficiently and effectively, not least because of the economic opportunities for the development of alternatives and for renewables.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick: My Lords, will the Leader of the House say a few words about views on the size of this gathering? I refer to the number of countries represented at the meeting, not the number of people who attend, to which the noble Lord, Lord McNally referred. Has not the time come to look again at the limitation to the eight countries which currently go to these meetings? When they were set up in the 1970s, the countries which went represented a very large proportion of the world’s economic activity. Doing the same sums now shows that the figure is 15 per cent or 20 per cent lower, and it is going south all the time. Has not the moment come to think about bringing in countries such as China, India, Brazil, and South Africa to this gathering? I am not talking about them coming for just a day or half a day, being politely received, and then going away and saying that they have nothing to do with the conclusions. Since the subjects that are being discussed are subjects to which the agreement of these countries is absolutely necessary, should not they be built into the whole process of preparation? How do we reach conclusions on climate change if we have half an hour with the Chinese President, who then goes away and says that he does not want anything to do with it? That surely demonstrates that this is not working very well.
On Zimbabwe, will the noble Baroness confirm that if there is a mandatory resolution in the Security Council, which I hope very much there will be in the near future, and President Mugabe is one of those whose travel is interdicted, it will override the arrangements which previously allowed him to abuse the generosity of the UN system and come to meetings from which it would have been much better if he had stayed away?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, on the second question, the noble Lord is far better informed on these matters than I am. However, that is certainly my understanding of the position, if we are fortunate enough to achieve what we want at the UN.
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In terms of the G8, I am well aware that there are always discussions about whether the right players are in the room at any debate. There are other countries which are relevant and important when it comes to any of the issues debated at the G8. When any group of countries comes together that tension always exists. That is the case even within the European Union. When its 27 nations are discussing, for example, migration, countries on the border of the European Union have just as much input and are relevant. We should accept the limitations of the groupings that we have. Yes, we should keep them under review—I do not have any information as to whether any proposal to review has been made—but I agree with the noble Lord that it is important to know who else needs to be in the room when those big decisions are made and with whom we need to have dialogue.
Lord Ryder of Wensum: My Lords, in view of the importance which the Government attach to G8 summits, will the Lord President remind us of the main achievements of the G8 summit 2007 during the past 12 months?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, the main achievement of the G8 summits during the past few years has been to try to secure the best possible dialogue on and understanding of some of the global issues that face the nations involved. I talked about some of them in the Statement, be it climate change, the forces that are disturbing economies around the world and the action that needs to be taken. Achievement comes in two parts: the first is decisions that are made and then implemented—we have mentioned in the Statement moving forward on a number of practical issues, whether it is nets for mosquitoes that will save 600,000 lives or longer-term issues that could make a difference, such as carbon emissions. The second is the fact that the countries come together to continue that dialogue and make headway on some of the bigger issues. It is very rare on the international stage for one to be able to point to a moment of, or one thing that came out of, a particular summit, but when we look back we see that the progress made on a number of issues has been incredibly important.
Lord Crisp: My Lords, the emphasis given in the Statement to health workers in Africa and the need to increase their numbers significantly is extremely important. Health workers need training and education before they can work. As the noble Baroness the Lord President will know, the United Kingdom has an unrivalled track record in medical education and in education of other health workers internationally, particularly in the 37 Commonwealth countries in sub-Saharan Africa. There is an opportunity here for the UK to do something very positive and practical in supporting the training and education of those health workers. Will the Government ensure that the relevant departments of health, international development and universities mobilise the expertise and good will that exists to support the education and training that are needed during the next few years to deliver on this promise?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, I pay tribute to the noble Lord’s expertise in this matter. The UK Government have sought to try to tackle it, first,
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Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, further to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, and since the Statement takes global warming for granted yet again, perhaps I may ask a question which I have asked previously but which has always been treated with something approaching disdain. Do the Government have a plan B if it turns out that any recent warming of the planet was caused almost entirely by the activity of the sun and very little, if at all, by human CO2 emissions? To gauge how seriously the Government may or may not be taking this new scientific theory, supported by a large and growing number of climate scientists, perhaps I may ask whether they have read the regular articles of the redoubtable Mr Christopher Booker in the Sunday Telegraph, which have given some of the theory’s detail? If they have not, will they undertake to do so and meet Mr Booker and his colleagues as appropriate? Of course, I appreciate that fossil fuels are finite and that energy conservation and diversification are in any case good for the soul, but surely policy should change if the planet is cooling down and if humanity is not responsible either way. Could we not at least drop the misguided wind power initiative, about which Mr Booker has also written persuasively? Surely things should change in the Government’s Statement and policy if, as even some of the global warmists admit, the planet is likely to cool for at least the next 12 years.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, I have not read the redoubtable Mr Booker and cannot say that I have much inclination to do so at the moment, as I have rather a lot on. However, to answer the noble Lord’s point in two ways, first, whatever the situation, helping people to insulate their homes so that their fuel bills fall is a good thing. Secondly, if we have what we currently have—rising oil prices—it is absolutely sensible to consider diversifying the way in which we get our energy.
Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords, like so many other noble Lords, I express extreme satisfaction at the fact that the situation in Zimbabwe was given such primacy at the summit and congratulate the leadership shown by the Prime Minister in that regard. However, despite the strongest international condemnation, the situation still remains that de facto Mugabe exercises absolute dictatorial and tyrannical control in that country. Has the time not now come for the United Kingdom to press for a cutting off of foreign exchange that ultimately will bring this regime down and also, indeed, bring the indictment of Mugabe and others of his murderous gang before the bar of international
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Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, I hesitate to pretend that I have the expertise to give a full assessment of what could happen at the UN. I am grateful to the noble Lord for his comments on the Prime Minister’s leadership, with which I concur completely. Within the Statement, we have tried to set out the road that we are going down in the support from the G8, which is now translated to the UN. Noble Lords have discussed with great knowledge and expertise on many occasions the issues in Zimbabwe. I sense and understand the frustration that we all share that we have not made the progress that we would like to make yet. However, all noble Lords will agree that there is no doubt of this Prime Minister’s commitment to continuing to find a way of dealing with this.
Lord Elton: My Lords, most of us would endorse the sentiments of the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, with regard to the handling of the Zimbabwe issue. On a narrower aspect of its effectiveness, 14 is a surprisingly small number of people. I presume that it cannot include the dependants and spouses of the people listed. It has been suggested that most of them will long ago have transferred most of their wealth to their spouses and dependants, who are freely spending it abroad on their behalf and on their own benefits. Can the proscription, if that is the word, be extended to them? Otherwise, it will not be effective.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, I believe that it is extended to them. As the noble Lord will see in the Statement, when he has the chance to look at it, we describe the forensic work that will go on to try to track bank accounts and so on, precisely to deal with the point that he has rightly raised. In fact, I have just been told that the provision applies just to the individuals, so I apologise for what I have just said because I had understood that it was extended to the families, too. But the work that will go on in tracking into which bank accounts the money has gone, which is described as forensic in the Statement, will be essential to tackle the point that the noble Lord has made.
The Duke of Montrose: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for repeating the Statement and for letting us know about the proposal from the G8 to invest $10 billion on improving food security and agricultural productivity. Could she tell the House whether there is a practical programme attached to spending that money and what form it would take? It is all very well for us to say that a successful Doha round will reduce food prices—it might do so in Europe—but for the countries that will benefit from increased trade, it will increase food prices for a large part of the world.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, as I indicated in the Statement, the $10 billion package is meant both to meet the short-term humanitarian needs of which noble Lords will be fully aware and to
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With the $10 billion, we shall start by doubling agricultural productivity in Africa over the next few years. That will be important, because it will enable us to use this money to introduce new technologies.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, I apologise for bowling the noble Baroness a ball which does not fall within her department’s remit. If she does not have time to read the work of Mr Booker, perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, could do so—or one of his officials—and meet Mr Booker as appropriate.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, the noble Lord can address that question in a note to my noble friend Lord Rooker.
Criminal Evidence (Witness Anonymity) Bill
12.30 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. As the House will be aware, the need for the Bill stems from the decision of the Appellate Committee of your Lordships’ House in the case of Davis. The judgment in that case was delivered just over three weeks ago, on 18 June.
The use of anonymous evidence is by no means a new phenomenon. It has been used in criminal proceedings now for the best part of two decades. The Davis case itself dates back to 2002, while the earlier case law on anonymous evidence dates back to 1990. When used appropriately, anonymous evidence can play a vital part in bringing serious and violent offenders to justice.
Prior to 18 June, it was accepted that the courts had common law powers to grant a witness anonymity order where the circumstances of a particular case justified a departure from the general presumption that an accused should know the identity of his or her accusers. The Appellate Committee of this House changed all that when it delivered the judgment in Davis. In short, the Law Lords found that there was not sufficient authority in the common law to support arrangements for the admission of anonymous evidence. The Appellate Committee further held that, on the facts of the Davis case, the use of anonymous evidence did not satisfy the requirements of Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights, which guarantees the right to a fair trial.
However, having reviewed the Strasbourg jurisprudence, the Appellate Committee found that it was open to Parliament to legislate—a point made by the noble and learned Lords, Lord Bingham of Cornhill, Lord Rodger of Earlsferry, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood and Lord Mance. That is what we are now
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The Government’s case for taking the Bill through all its stages before the Summer Recess is that, following the Davis judgment, the Crown Prosecution Service has undertaken a trawl of all the live cases it is dealing with to assess how many of them involve the use of anonymous evidence. The results of that research are as follows. As at 25 June, the CPS had identified some 580 cases involving anonymous witnesses. This figure can be broken down into four categories. First, around 290 cases involve test purchases for drugs by undercover officers. Secondly, some 40 further cases involve other undercover operations by law enforcement agents. Thirdly, some 50 cases involve members of the public as witnesses; this figure will be made up of a mixture of cases involving innocent bystanders and those in which the anonymous witness will be associated with the accused in some way. Finally, there are approximately 200 cases where either the defendant has been convicted and awaits sentencing or the offender has been sentenced and the 28-day period for making an in-time appeal is still running. There will, in addition, be other cases where a conviction was secured some time ago on the basis of anonymous evidence. Many of these cases involve serious offences including murder, attempted murder and terrorism-related offences.
I stress that these figures have been compiled after an expedited review of current CPS casework and should consequently be viewed as a snapshot of the position and subject to change. However, they give us an indication of the current scale of the problem. Given these numbers, it is the Government’s firm view that we now need to act in the public interest, to put the use of anonymous evidence on a firm statutory footing. Delay would mean that a significant number of trials may have to be abandoned and a further large number of convictions could well be overturned on appeal.
The Bill seeks to place on a statutory footing a power for courts to grant witness anonymity orders in criminal proceedings where this is consistent with the right of a defendant to a fair trial. Clause 1 makes clear that the previous common law rules are abolished. Clause 2 confers power on the courts to make witness anonymity orders in criminal proceedings. It is worth noting that neither the Davis judgment nor the provisions of the Bill impact on the position in respect of civil proceedings. This clause also sets out an indicative list of the special measures that may be taken to protect the identity of a person who is the subject of a witness anonymity order. Clause 3 deals with applications for witnesses anonymity orders. Following an amendment made by the other place, it now expressly provides that every party to the proceedings has an opportunity to be heard on an application for an order.
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The crux of the Bill is to be found in Clauses 4 and 5. Clause 4 sets out the conditions for the making of a witness anonymity order, and Clause 5 sets out the considerations to which the court must have regard when assessing whether the conditions have been met. The Bill sets out three conditions for the making of an order. All three conditions must be satisfied before the judge can make an anonymity order. The first is that the protective measures to be specified in the order are necessary, to protect the safety of the witness or other person, or to protect serious damage to property, or to prevent real harm to the public interest. This latter limb of condition A is intended to cover the sort of undercover operations I have described, where to make known the identity of an undercover officer would put an end to their ability to conduct such operations in future, as well as putting them at risk of reprisal. The second condition, condition B, is that the proposed protective measures would be consistent with a defendant’s right to a fair trial. The third, and final, condition, condition C, is that it is necessary to make an order in the interests of justice. As I have said, all three conditions must be satisfied. If it is not possible to make a witness anonymity order without undermining the defendant’s right to a fair trial, an order cannot and will not be made.
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