| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
The noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, has on this and previous occasions mentioned the huge importance that her department attaches to this issue. That is probably an improvement on my day. However, that has to percolate right down and create a new attitude to design right through the planning system. Some of the amendments in this group, which the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, outlined, are aimed at the existing planning system, not just at the new process that is set up in the early parts of the Bill. They are hugely important. At the same time, attention needs to be given to the recruitment and training of those who will work in planning departments. It is not an easy time to say that. Local authorities, like everyone else, will have to watch every penny of their spending. This issue may seem to some, including some local authority leaders, as a luxury that we cannot afford. As the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, pointed out, that is a gravely mistaken view.
I referred on Monday to an attitude characterised by the statement, “If it’s a bad building it won’t last very long”. If it is a bad building it will not work. I am
8 Oct 2008 : Column 257
I therefore support this group of amendments. I believe that it would be greatly to the advantage of this legislation if, whether or not the amendments have been properly drafted, the Government could incorporate amendments in the Bill for Report which would reflect the view that has been expressed so far in all parts of the Committee, including in Monday’s debate. Therefore, I commend the amendment and warmly support it.
5 pm
Lord Greaves: I shall explain in a moment why I want to intervene now. As this is the first time I have spoken in this Committee, first, I declare an interest as a member of a local planning authority. Secondly, I apologise to the Minister and to the Committee as I do not think I shall be able to stay until the end of the debate on this amendment. I have been summoned to an event at No. 10 Downing Street at half-past five and I do not think I should be late for it. I have never been there before and I want to go and have a look at the place.
I congratulate the movers of these amendments for their ingenuity and thoroughness in going through the Bill with a fine-tooth comb and inserting the words “design quality” at every possible opportunity. I am not sure that all the instances that we have found are appropriate but I recognise what they have done and congratulate them. If I had done it, I would be quite proud.
Secondly, I congratulate them on raising the issue. So far as the Liberal Democrats are concerned, although we do not necessarily support the detail of each individual amendment, we should like to give enthusiastic general support for this batch of amendments. We very much hope that the Government will, as they have done with previous legislation, take this issue back and insert those words in the Bill where they think it appropriate to do so. That is the least that we can ask them to do and I hope that they will do it.
Having said that, I recall the last big piece of planning legislation, which I think was the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004—I cannot believe that it was four years ago; it seems like yesterday. During the passage of that Bill, we had similar discussions about the phrase “sustainable development”. In discussing that at great length, we had difficulty in deciding what it meant. What one person means by sustainable development is different from what another means, but in a sense we all think that it is a good thing and therefore we want it in the Bill.
In a sense, design is the same. To some extent, if you put a group of people in a room and ask them what they think good design is, they will spend half their lifetime discussing it. Perhaps a lifetime will not be long enough and they will discuss it for ever, yet what the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, said in a splendid
8 Oct 2008 : Column 258
If we look around, we see a lot of shoddy, shabby development. Much of it is perfectly functional but some of it clearly is not, as the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, said. Increasingly, it is sustainable, although there is a long way to go on that, but in terms of what the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, called “aesthetic appearance”, it is awful. Far too often in this country, we put up not with second or third best but with dross. The noble Lord mentioned some big projects in other parts of Europe—in France, for example. When I go to France, I am always amazed at the number of small projects taking place—small new buildings of all sorts in the public and private sectors. People have made an effort to design them to make them look attractive. In some cases, they are designed to fit in with what surrounds them and with what was there previously, and in other cases they are intended to make a determined modern statement, being quite different from what was there previously. Nevertheless, you look at these projects and think, “Why can’t we do that in this country?”. You look at new village halls, new community centres and some new industrial buildings, even new supermarkets. I am not saying that everything in France is wonderful—it is not; there is some rubbish there as well—but there is far more good design there. Whether it is a small, large or medium-sized project, one thinks, “This is better than what we usually do in our country”.
A change of culture is needed. Although people will never really agree on what is high-quality design, somehow you recognise it when you see it. It is important to realise that we are talking about design and not about different styles. You can design buildings well whether they are built in a traditional way or in a modern way, or however they are built. Good design is good design. Usually you recognise it when you see it.
The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, said a few things about councillors and council officials, looking for the lowest common denominator. I call it development controlled by tick lists. There is a huge amount of that around. Nevertheless, some people at local level are as frustrated as everyone else by the inability to produce good stuff. I put forward one anecdote about my own town, Colne. A couple of years ago, we had a new Sure Start centre built and when the plans came in, some of us councillors looked at them and said, “What's this?”. We had been looking for a building which made a statement right in the middle of town, opposite the parish church, which is a Grade I listed building and we had been provided with something which we thought was a bit shabby. They had done all the right things: they were building it with natural stone; the roof would look as though it were made of blue slate, even though it was not; the windows were the right shape and so on, but it just was not right. It was not of the right quality.
We complained and demanded a meeting with the committee which was putting in the application. Those on the committee said, “We had something different because you told us you wanted a statement on this
8 Oct 2008 : Column 259
Some of us have found the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004 very useful because it put design on the face of the legislation. That is useful because now we and anyone else who is interested in design can say to the planners, “It’s there, and the Government say you have to do it”. It has filtered down through PPSs and so on, which has been very useful indeed. When a planning officer says, as one said to me, “I can't help with this because I have no qualifications in design”, I can say to him, “Well, go and get some, if that is what you need because we are doing it”.
Some of the amendments are particularly useful. The suggestion that development consent orders should specifically refer to design is useful. The Part 9 amendments, which change the existing planning regime to emphasise design further, are useful and the suggestion that the content of development consent orders should specifically have to refer to design is very useful indeed. It may be that some of this is best done in the secondary legislation that will follow this Bill, but I think we would all like a commitment from the Minister that it will be there. Unless there is a concerted attempt in this country to increase the standard and quality of building design, not just functionality and sustainability—you can make functional and sustainable buildings that look horrible—buildings will not work because people will not like them. They will not provide a nice environment to work in and live around. Unless we make a conscious effort to increase the quality of visual design in this country, we will continue to be not second best in Europe, but a long way down the league. I support the ethos behind the amendments.
Lord Chorley: I start by apologising for missing the opening speeches on this group of amendments. When I read the Marshalled List, my first reaction was that they were a bit over the top, but I have listened not only to this afternoon’s debate but also to general discussion on this important Bill, and I have begun to appreciate the wide ramifications of NPSs and the work of the IPC. I am sure that they are right to emphasise the importance of good design if we are sensitively and properly to rebuild our infrastructure. It will be enormous. Most of the discussion I have heard this afternoon has been about buildings. The single point I wish to make is that good design is not just about buildings. It is much wider than that. This is particularly important in the context of infrastructure that crosses the country: new roads, new railways, ports and, in some cases, wind turbines. It is extremely important that infrastructure sits properly in the landscape.
8 Oct 2008 : Column 260
I am not an architect or anything like that, and I think it is a pity that the two most distinguished architects in this House—the noble Lord, Lord Rogers, and my noble friend Lord Foster—cannot contribute to this discussion. Oh! I bow and can sit down very quickly as the noble Lord, Lord Rogers, is in his place. I remember that in his maiden speech my noble friend Lord Foster talked about design in this wider context, and I am sure that is what the noble Lord, Lord Rogers, will do. I look forward to him taking part in this debate.
Lord Hart of Chilton: I shall speak briefly to support the principles underlying these amendments and to urge the Minister to allow a reference to good design to appear in the Bill. I, too, must declare an interest as an honorary fellow of the RIBA—this House seems to be full of them this afternoon—and I have also served as a deputy chairman to my noble friend Lord Rogers as a member of the Architecture Foundation, which has promoted good design for a long time and has encouraged young architects to strive to work with local communities in promoting good design.
I endorse all that my noble friend Lord Howarth said so excellently. In 35 years of practice, I worked with some superb architects and some not so superb. It is important that the Bill should contain reference to good design because in my experience planning guidance has not been sufficient. Planning guidance can so easily be dismissed on the grounds that good design is a subjective matter of taste and that it is all a matter of opinion. I do not believe that to be true; good design is not a luxury but an essential. It does not add expense; it adds value to the product made by good design. I endorse what the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, said and encourage the Minister to incorporate, not necessarily the words proposed in the amendment but words to the effect that ultimate decisions on whether a proposal is acceptable will have to have regard to good design.
5.15 pm
Lord Crisp: I have no particular personal experience, expertise or fellowship, but having been the chief executive of the NHS for a number of years, I have overseen some of the clients of design. My experience—this is where I want to associate my remarks with those of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, about the three-part distinction that the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, made about what design is—is that functionality is fantastically important.
I make a distinction from the sense of functionality that the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, used. In health, you can look after a patient in any environment, but there are some environments that enhance your ability to look after patients. Functionality is about enhancing the activity that takes place within the environment. We need buildings that are designed not only for the individual but for the community and that are pleasurable as well. To take one quick illustration from health, we recognise how important the environment is for the health of the patient, whether therapeutically for those physically ill or,
8 Oct 2008 : Column 261
I know that one problem in talking about design is that people may think that we are talking about imposing particular criteria or styles of design. What I like about the amendments, even if the words are changed, is that they do not seek to do that. As I understand it, they are intended to leave a space not only for making judgments, but to require people to consider design and to make a judgment in their local context. That will also put a requirement on the client to think about and make judgments about design. That is more important than details of design.
Finally, it seems ridiculous, does it not? How could good design not be part of planning? We know that that is not always true. I put in a word for the British in comparison with the French. Anyone who has driven around the outskirts of Paris will know what I am talking about. We also see in the health service and elsewhere many good, well-designed, functionally enhancing services that provide much better conditions for the life of patients there. Sadly, that is not always the case. Good design and good planning are not always hand in hand. That is why I support the proposal that the Bill should require that design is explicitly articulated as one of the criteria in planning.
Baroness Ford: I too support the amendments and, in so doing, apologise to Members of the Committee for not having been able to be present at Second Reading. I shall make two brief points but, before doing so, I pay tribute to the absolute tour de force from my noble friend Lord Howarth. This has been an absolutely superb short debate today and I will be very brief, but I wanted to pick up on a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Best, which has prompted me to rise, although the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, has now stolen my thunder.
I wanted to say that as a client for the Royal Infirmary of Edinburgh, a PFI-commissioned hospital and medical school, it is not the PFI process that causes us to have poor or good design; it is the behaviour, aspirations and ambition of the client. One reason why I support the amendments—apart from all the other reasons that have been put forward today—is that, if the Homes and Communities Agency now has a specific statutory duty to attend to and promote good design, as the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, said, it is absolutely consistent that the National Planning Commission has exactly the same duties and responsibilities.
More importantly, if the commission has this responsibility, it sends an incredibly powerful message to clients who will come forward with major infrastructure projects that will be so visually dominant across the country, as a number of noble Lords have said, to stiffen their resolve when commissioning the kind of designs that will have to be paid for in the main by private finance. Naturally, I want to complete the circle and make the point that, if we want PFI-sponsored projects that are strongly
8 Oct 2008 : Column 262
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: I will not go over the ground covered by the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, who moved and spoke to their amendments so comprehensively and so admirably, but I will confine myself to the principle of the 18th-century Back-Bencher, who after a fine speech by Edmund Burke, simply stood up and said, “Ditto to Mr Burke”, and sat down again.
At the risk of making a brief Second Reading speech—I should stress perhaps that I did not speak at Second Reading—my own interest in architecture was stimulated at a school that had been founded in 1843, where the governors employed en série first Blore, then Street—I lived in a building by Street that was the first building in the whole kingdom to have concrete in its material—and then Bodley to build a new and larger chapel, because Blore’s chapel had been too small. In Bodley’s office was Comper, a boy of 18 then. Sixty years later, Comper returned to the school to refurbish and redesign the reredos that Bodley had built 60 years earlier as a post war memorial. Then came Norman Shaw followed by Aston Webb. The cricket pavilion was by Alfred Waterhouse; I suspect that it is possibly the only cricket pavilion that Alfred Waterhouse ever designed. Even the school architect, who was an old boy of the school, although his father was an RA, contributed the science laboratories, which became one of the first of 50 buildings in the 20th century to be listed by the appropriate authorities.
Great names are not everything, but its cumulative message had a profound effect on me. It is disloyal of me to say so, but the school has not used architects of the same quality in the past 50 years. I should, as a mea culpa, say that I served for nine years as a governor of the school in a couple of different spasms, but I do not recall our working under an articulated architectural policy. That is why I so support the emphasis of the amendments.
I conclude with a tribute to the chairman of a characteristic West Midlands, Black Country business with factories all over the kingdom—a chairman no doubt long since dead—whom I visited in the early 1960s when I was in the private sector. He explained that his business had just employed a corporate architect for the first time, and that his first action as chairman was to send him on a three-month sabbatical to look at fine contemporary buildings in all the other countries of the globe. That is the spirit that should underlie the forthcoming explosion of infrastructure in our country.
Lord Low of Dalston: I too pay tribute to the eloquence of the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, in moving the amendment—an eloquence which I fear I shall not be able to match. I begin with two apologies: first, that I was not present at Second Reading; and, secondly, that I may have to leave before the end of the debate, although I fear that I do not have as good an excuse as having been summoned to No. 10.
8 Oct 2008 : Column 263
I support the amendments, particularly Amendment No. 86, which would lay on the Secretary of State an obligation to exercise his functions with the objective of contributing to good design as well as to sustainable development, and Amendment No. 359 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, which would provide that:
“An order granting development consent must impose requirements on design quality in connection with the development for which consent is granted”.
Architecture, planning and environmental design are not natural territory for me, but I have been brought to them by my experience in my neighbourhood of Dalston. Others have come at this through examples of good practice. I am afraid that I rather come at it from the vantage point of examples of bad practice, which I venture to think may be more numerous in our time. I have spoken about this before in your Lordships’ House and would not wish to weary Members of the Committee with a further lengthy account of what is happening in Dalston. I refer to it merely to underline the importance of design. However, I will give an indication of what I am talking about for those who did not hear my lengthier account on a previous occasion.
Dalston is certainly badly in need of regeneration. You would think then that we would be glad that Transport for London and the London Development Agency decided to take it in hand. It was said to be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for Dalston. Instead, we are faced with an assortment of off-the-shelf, unimaginatively designed, indeed brutal, tower blocks of up to 20 storeys, varying in height, and crammed together with little recreational space. What there is consists largely of a sunless wind tunnel. The tower blocks have no relationship either to the Victorian street pattern or to one another and there is little aesthetic coherence. They will not regenerate; they will blight the environment and bring no benefit to the area. Instead of design-led regeneration, which should be the aim of planners, we have the prospect of a sink estate in less than a generation. It is not difficult to imagine the potential for alienation, anti-social behaviour and vandalism. As a criminologist I know that that is not the way to build a housing estate.
It is not my purpose to dilate on the problems of Dalston for their own sake. My purpose is to illustrate the need for design considerations to be made central to the planning process in the Bill. Without that, as we have heard, it just does not happen. As a Member of the Committee said, planning guidance, of which there is a plethora, plainly is not enough. Dalston is an illustration of what happens when the need to have regard to the requirement of good design is not clearly and unmistakeably built into the planning process.
The RIBA has said that design is about much more than aesthetics. With my noble friend Lord Chorley, I maintain that it is also about much more than buildings. It is about sustainability. It brings social, environmental and health benefits. For that reason, the RIBA goes on to say that design should be one of the most important considerations in new development. The Planning Bill should be used to entrench design into
8 Oct 2008 : Column 264
There is no incompatibility between functionality and good, exciting design. The Victorians demonstrated it. Other countries show that it can be done. We can look at Chicago or Shanghai. If disasters like Dalston are not to be perpetuated, design imperatives need to be at the heart of planners’ considerations. I very much hope that the Government will agree to these amendments or some form of them.
5.30 pm
Lord Rogers of Riverside: I am an architect, so let me first refer Members of the Committee to my various interests, all of which are listed in the Register of Lords’ Interests. I add my support to this group of amendments put forward by my noble friends Lord Howarth and Lady Whitaker and I congratulate them on the content of their speeches. I am delighted to hear the support that design has had today.
| Next Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |