| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Staying with the issue of timescales, Amendments Nos. 196, 197, 199A and 250 all urge the Government to extend these. Amendments Nos. 196 and 197 argue that consultees need to be given sufficient time to respond to a promoter’s consultation, but it is equally important that they provide the promoter with any information or advice he needs in a timely manner as the promoter will be reliant on certain consultees such as local authorities for specific information. Therefore, statutory consultees who hold such information have to be able to respond promptly and properly to help the investigation along.
The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, as always, spoke eloquently on this issue, but I stress that the 28-day period specified in relation to pre-application consultation is a minimum period. It will be open to an applicant to give those consulted a longer period to respond. Applications will vary in complexity and will require different periods of time for consultation. Promoters will have to look very carefully to ensure that those periods meet the requirements of disabled people. I take the point the noble Lord made that often documents in a special format come out far too late for disabled people to make use of them. We should try to do something about that. Therefore, we have flexibility when specifying a deadline for consultation. The question arises of why the promoter should make that offer. However, they are in a position to come to a view on the timetable. The promoter knows the detail of what he is dealing with. That is all subject to the same
16 Oct 2008 : Column 874
The formal pre-application consultation is unlikely to be either the beginning or the end of the process. That is relevant because many of these details will have been hammered out in bilateral conversations with individuals, agencies and groups in the community before the application even reaches the pre-application process.
On Amendments Nos. 199A and 200, I underline that the local authority is not being consulted on the application—that takes place under Clause 41—but is being asked to express its opinion on how a promoter should consult people in the local authority’s area. It is important that local authorities respond quickly to this consultation and it is reasonable to give a four-week opportunity to do so, because we do not want any procrastination at these sorts of process levels. The timescales set out allow for flexibility but provide safeguards. I hope that noble Lords will accept that explanation.
Amendments Nos. 201 and 183 would require that arrangements for publishing an application locally include one talking newspaper where available and that arrangements must be made to make sure that the register of applications maintained by the IPC is available in formats accessible to disabled people. I fully sympathise with the purpose of these amendments. I can give an assurance that guidance from the Secretary of State under Clause 46(5)(b) will give consideration to the need for consultation to address the needs of people with disabilities. As I have said, the Disability Discrimination Act will apply.
Amendment No. 176, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, and the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, would alter Clause 36 to require an applicant to provide evidence that he has taken all reasonable steps to ensure that his proposals conform with the local development framework relevant to the affected area. I happily respond to the invitation made by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. I will be delighted to send a long letter to noble Lords about how this locks into the planning process. It is not complex, but it is quite difficult to visualise. We are not talking about a hierarchy of planning documents, although the NPS will be the material consideration. We are talking about the integration of the planning policies that are already in place into the NPS and the reflection of those policies, through the regional spatial strategies, into the local development framework. I will happily set out for noble Lords how we see that working and the flow chart that it will involve.
It is already a requirement that, once a national policy statement is established, the relevant development plans, including regional spatial strategies and local development frameworks, should be consistent with it. I take the point raised by the amendment that the developer must work with the local authority in relation to the local development plan to ensure that, in so far as it can be consistent, it is. We hope that there would be evidence of close working throughout the entire process. Local development plans are coming on stream and the process has been accelerated. Part of the
16 Oct 2008 : Column 875
However, that does not mean that local concerns will not be taken into account; far from it. In fact, the Bill places a clear role for local authorities to ensure that local concerns are given proper weight. In addition to their role in consultation that I have specified, the Bill makes specific provision for local authorities to be statutory consultees and to submit a report of local impacts. The local development plan will be reflected throughout that and it will highlight the impact of the proposals.
I have spoken at some length. I hope that I have addressed all the issues that have been raised in the amendments.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach: This is purely a matter of clarification. I want to ask about marine representation in the Bill. Am I right in assuming that the noble Baroness has affirmed today that by regulatory means there will be a requirement to consult with the marine body—the Marine and Fisheries Agency or later the MMO? I cannot understand why that is not central and why it is not in this Bill, because it will be part of the forthcoming marine Bill. That suggests some resistance by the promoters of this Bill to acknowledge the concern of the promoters of the marine Bill that there should be equivalence. My interest in this matter is to try to make sure that there is a system in which the pre-consultative process diffuses the tensions that can exist. One does not want—and I am sure that the noble Baroness is no exception—a situation where planning applications go through but a body starts to create a fuss at later stages, as the MMO will be perfectly entitled to do under the marine Bill, which we shall consider in due course.
Baroness Andrews: I agree with everything that the noble Lord has said. First, there has to be a proper read-across between the provisions of both Bills in terms of the objectives that they serve and what we are after, to ensure that we have the best possible processes and understand how the marine environment will relate to them. At one level, the marine legislation will be fed into the national policy statement, like every other piece of relevant national legislation. In terms of the regulatory structure, the MMO will be a statutory consultee. That will be set out in regulations. We have not identified any statutory consultees in the Bill, because it is not good practice to do that; one would need to keep adding to the list and different NPSs will require different statutory consultees. I hope that I have answered the two main points. Perhaps I may write to the noble Lord, because we have not had a full debate on that relationship and we may tease out some of the other issues that he raised.
16 Oct 2008 : Column 876
Lord Greaves: I have two quick points. I thank the Minister for yet again providing us with a large amount of bedtime reading before the next stage of the Bill. I particularly look forward to her promised explanation of how the NPSs and ADCs will fit into the existing planning system. If we can get that soon enough to dissuade us from putting down amendments at Report, it would be in everyone’s interests, although it may not dissuade us.
The national policy statements will not go into the sort of detail that local development frameworks do on all kinds of things, such as design and materials. I am trying to discover whether aspects of the planning policy at regional and local level through the LDFs will need to be taken into consideration, alongside the major strategic matters in the NPS, when the Infrastructure Planning Commission deals with an application.
Baroness Andrews: The noble Lord is absolutely right. In some cases, the NPS is a material consideration; the planning system will not be suspended but will operate alongside the NPS, in matters such as siting, location and materials, which are governed by a range of other provisions to improve the way in which we plan. I give the noble Lord that assurance.
Lord Greaves: I am grateful for that and I am sure that it will form part of what we get, because the noble Baroness previously seemed to dismiss the LDFs as probably being out of date.
Lord Greaves: Okay; we will look forward to that. The other issue that I wish to raise is the role of a local authority as a statutory consultee under the pre-application consultation system. A local authority will be asked to do two different things. One is to provide information. It is perfectly reasonable that there should be a deadline such as 28 days if the applicant is serving a notice on a local authority asking for information on, for example, local sewers, traffic counts, what is in the LDF and so on. It is reasonable that a local authority must provide that information quickly, because it possesses that information. If the local authority is efficient in any way, it will be able to pull the information off the shelf or out of a computer and provide it. That is different from the local authority as a consultee being asked to provide its considered views on a proposal—in other words, being asked to provide its opinion, based on facts and information. That is why 28 days is onerous and will cause bother.
Baroness Andrews: I think that there is a distinction to be made; it is that distinction that allows for the flexibility to kick in and will allow longer for the second sort of application. However, I shall clarify that and, if I am wrong, I shall write to the noble Lord.
Lord Jenkin of Roding: I hesitate to disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, except on one thing. It is not bedtime reading, otherwise I would fall asleep; it is weekend reading. We shall certainly want to study carefully what the noble Baroness said, particularly with regard to the points that I raised on the two, what
16 Oct 2008 : Column 877
3.30 pm
Lord Judd: I thank my noble friend for what she said about national parks; it was very encouraging. I have no doubts whatever about her personal commitment. What I am still a little anxious about is the cut and thrust and dynamics of the real process of planning. Without wishing to bore the Committee, perhaps I may remind noble Lords that the post-war Labour Government had a vision of the parks belonging to the nation. Thank God that that vision has been endorsed by Administrations of different political persuasions ever since and the parks do belong to the nation. The principle was that people would be appointed to be the guardians of the responsibilities; we talked a little about democracy on Tuesday, and I cannot see anything undemocratic about this. Parliament decided that the parks belonged to the nation and they were for the nation. It was the guarantor of the whole process and Parliament is certainly accountable to the people.
The trouble with regulation, as distinct from what is in the Bill, is that, as powerful realities come into play, a certain psychology develops. People say, “Have all the consultations taken place? Yes, here on the face of the Bill are the things that have to be consulted about and the bodies that are consulted”. When asked whether there is anything else, the answer is, “Oh yes, there are the national parks”, and their status immediately begins to drop in the debate. That is what I am worried about. Therefore, although of course I welcome what the Minister indicated she is determined will happen—it would be wrong not to welcome that most warmly—I ask her and her officials and colleagues to go away and think about this. I believe that if they are to fulfil the vision that has been held by successive Governments, it is important to take an opportunity such as this to say that the national parks are a major consideration in the deliberations.
Lord Dixon-Smith: It will be difficult to give a sufficient summary of what has been said and the Committee will be relieved to hear that I have no intention of trying to do so. However, one or two points need to be mentioned. The whole tenor of this debate has been about a process. It has been about consultation. The first question was: who is to be consulted? I shall not go into the answers to individual questions, except to pick up what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Judd. The national parks are planning authorities. I understand that, with a little luck, by the time we get to the end of the Bill they will have a regular place, because I believe that it is proposed that
16 Oct 2008 : Column 878
“Who?” is of course an important question. The second important question is: how is this consultation to be done? A number of questions were raised on the issue of how much faith people would have in a system of consultation run by the applicant. That leads me to the next word that I have written down: “trust”. We have to see all of this in operation before any of us knows how it will work. The next word is “effect”. What effect will the consultation have on the application, if any? People will have much more faith in the process if it is clear that applicants are doing their best to respond to what is said. My final question is the timescale in which all of this has to take place.
All these important points have been raised in the debate, but the Minister has answered all too often, “Guidance will be forthcoming from the Government on all these matters”. We have to answer the question to our satisfaction today without the guidance. That is one of the great difficulties that we constantly have with legislation. There is nothing that we can do about it; in the end it comes down to a question of belief. We ought to realise how significant this debate has been. Everyone who has tabled amendments will no doubt study the Minister’s response in considerable detail and with great care and will have to decide how far she has answered their concerns.
There will be some interesting times ahead. I will pick up just one point made by my noble friend Lord Taylor of Holbeach, who asked that the Marine Management Organisation should be a consultee. It should be a consultee not only on things that happen in the sea. Some things that happen on land can have a dramatic effect. Any power station or cooling system on the coast consumes enormous volumes of sea water to enable it to keep running at a reasonable temperature. There is no particular problem with that except that every now and again they consume enormous numbers of fish fry—little baby things that you hardly notice drifting up and down the coast. Sometimes large proportions of fish fry stocks can go through a power station in a short period, which has a dramatic impact on stocks.
Those are all important points. I am most grateful to the noble Baroness. I, like everybody else, will go away and find a cold wet towel and decide what to do. She has certainly tried to give an answer even though it cannot be satisfactory because we cannot put into the Bill what she hopes will happen. This is part of a learning process, as it will be for the whole community. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 177 and 178 not moved.]
Baroness Hamwee moved Amendment No. 179:
179: Clause 37, page 23, line 23, leave out from “may” to “to” in line 25 and insert “provide model provisions”
16 Oct 2008 : Column 879
The noble Baroness said: This may not take quite so long. Clause 36 deals with what my noble friend has called ADCs—applications for development consent. I have three little amendments here, and I hope that the Minister got my note saying what I would say. First, I want to probe what is the regulation-making power in Clause 36. Secondly, model provisions may be prescribed, but they are not mandatory. My amendment probes what that means. Does it mean that there cannot be a provision which is a bit different from the prescribed provision? Can the Minister give me a translation? I hope the noble Lord, Lord Patel, also received my e-mail. I feel that Clause 37 is slightly heavy-handed, but I shall not take issue with that. But I am unclear about how this will work. I beg to move.
Lord Patel of Bradford:These amendments alter the way in which the Secretary of State may bring forward model provisions relating to development consent orders. The amendments would remove the requirement that any model provisions for incorporation in a draft order should be set out in regulations made by the Secretary of State. The procedure for bringing such model provisions forward would consequently be less formal than is currently provided for in the Bill. The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, helpfully set out her concerns. In order for us to consider this issue further, I shall set out the details behind our thinking on this and briefly explain the background.
Model clauses are already used extensively by promoters through the similar power to issue model clauses by order in Section 8 of the Transport and Works Act 1992. Model clauses are helpful in ensuring that development consent orders follow high standards of legislative drafting. They provide consistency in drafting, which is undoubtedly of benefit to all. They often cover technical matters which frequently arise in relation to large infrastructure projects and developments.
Clause 36(3)(d) gives the Secretary of State a power to prescribe certain documents and information that must accompany an application. It is intended that regulations under this power will be used to require that a draft of the consent order sought by the promoter should be one of the accompanying documents. Promoters will find it useful to have model provisions to follow when preparing such draft orders.
Clause 37(2) requires the commission to have regard to model clauses when making an order for development consent, while subsection (3) makes it clear that Clause 37 does not amount to a requirement to use model clauses but simply makes them available for use where they are helpful. Amendment No. 182 would delete subsection (3), but if the intention is that, as a result, the IPC should be required to use model clauses, then I must disappoint the noble Baroness. Nothing in the Bill requires the IPC to use the model provisions, and we believe that that is right. That is not the purpose of model provisions, which are intended for guidance. Making the inclusion of model provisions a legal requirement would be unduly burdensome and contrary to the spirit of the Bill. Giving the Secretary of State a power to prescribe model provisions by order brings them within the general provisions relating to statutory instruments and allows for scrutiny by the Joint Committee
16 Oct 2008 : Column 880
The provisions are designed to be helpful to promoters. The similar power under Section 8 of the Transport and Works Act has worked well and been well received. I hope that that reassures the noble Baroness and that she will withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Hamwee: I am grateful for that explanation. I take it that the term “prescribed” in Clause 36(3)(d) refers to a regulation-making power—I think that I am losing my grip on the terminology here. No, I did not mean that model provisions should be mandatory.
The noble Lord has reminded me of a suggestion that I was going to make on how we can move on with this Bill. After a certain point on any given day, noble Lords who have tabled amendments should simply stand up and move them, because the Ministers will always tell us what the amendments’ effect will be. Perhaps we should reserve our remarks for our response to the Minister’s reply. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 180 to 182 not moved.]
Clause 38 [Register of applications]:
[Amendment No. 183 not moved.]
[Amendments Nos. 183A to 188 not moved.]
Clause 42 [Local authorities for purposes of section 41(1)(b)]:
[Amendments Nos. 189 to 191 not moved.]
3.45 pm
| Next Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |