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This is another part of ensuring that the IPC is independent. If that framework is, so to speak, established by the Secretary of State, then it will give the commission a greater degree of freedom from involvement in the applicants’ actual work. If it is seen to be giving applicants advice, it could be advising them to put in the application in a form which suits it. It could be argued that the commission would be leading the applicants. That would be neither desirable nor good. I beg to move.
Baroness Hamwee: It occurred to me, when reading Amendment No. 204, that there is an analogy. In the normal world of planning, a local planning authority will give advice. I am not quite sure whether that leads me to the conclusion that it should be the commission which gives advice or whether, following my arguments on the first day of Committee, the final decision should be that of the Secretary of State. I throw that in, for what it is worth.
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I was distracted. I am not sure that the noble Lord spoke to Amendment No. 205. I believe that we have agreed informally that the question of cross-examination and oral submissions is to be left to a later group. I agree with his Amendment No. 208 about disclosure.
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Lord Patel of Bradford: Perhaps I may begin by setting out what Clause 49 seeks to achieve. The giving of advice will play an important role both in helping to ensure that applications to the commission are consistently well prepared and are of good quality from the outset, and in assisting people to participate in the process for making representations about a proposal and participating in the examination process.
Promoters are likely to need early advice on whether the project that they are considering would fall within the commission’s remit to determine. The commission would also be able to provide technical advice on procedural issues and about the form of the application and the supporting documents that should be submitted.
The commission may also be able to give early advice on the kind of information that should be collected. Some data—for example, data needed for an environmental impact assessment—can take a long time to collect, and it will be important for promoters to understand the data requirements so that they can start gathering at the earliest opportunity. This could avoid substantial delays caused by needing to gather new information during the decision-making stage. We will make regulations about the environmental impact assessment in due course.
It is important that the advice-giving process does not favour the promoter, as other parties, such as local people or people with an interest in nearby land, may also want advice from the commission. They may, for example, seek more information about the application process, how to make representations, or the procedures and timescales.
Clause 49 therefore allows advice to be given about such issues equally to those seeking to make representations. That ensures that the process for applying for orders, granting development consent and making representations is transparent to everyone involved. It will help people who might object to a proposed application find out what types of evidence they may be allowed to give to the commission during the examination and how they can make their views known.
The detail as to how advice will be given will be a matter for the IPC to determine, in accordance with any regulations about this under Clause 49(4). However, it may be expected that a range of methods could be employed; for example, information could be made available online as well as in person, or on request in writing or even by telephone.
In Amendments Nos. 204, 206, 207 and 209, noble Lords argue that it would be improper for the decision-making body also to have responsibility for giving advice to promoters. The amendments would place this role in the hands of an existing body— perhaps they have in mind a body such as the Planning Inspectorate. I wholeheartedly agree with noble Lords on the need for propriety, and for a clear and transparent
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It is, however, essential that this advice-giving function falls to the IPC. Most importantly, the consent process will be owned by the IPC, and it would make little sense for another body to give advice on it. It will hold much of the detailed, practical information that might be needed. For example, the IPC will undertake the scoping for environmental impact assessments, and advice regarding this will be of vital importance.
Lord Dixon-Smith: I thought that Amendment No. 204 was quite specific and required the Secretary of State to give advice. It is not some other body; it happens to be a particular body.
Lord Patel of Bradford: I had understood that the role would be performed by a government body before it reached the Secretary of State. However, we still think that is important that the consent process is owned by the IPC, because of the detailed information that it will have and the process that will need to be gone through.
The IPC will be able to advise on how the requirements and standards for applications set out in Clause 36 will apply for individual applications as well. The IPC will also be able to provide information on the particular timings and processes for each stage of an application to ensure that those seeking to make representations are ideally placed to make their views known. Additionally, the IPC will be, and will be seen to be, independent of any body with an interest in the process, and is therefore ideally placed to give open, impartial advice to both promoters and those with concerns about a project. For example, the Secretary of State in this case or the Planning Inspectorate will not have the detailed knowledge of the IPCs processes that will be undertaken in respect of individual applications. That is a position unique to the IPC. It is absolutely a job for the IPC to do.
Having set out the argument that the IPC is best placed to give this advice, I should stress that it is vital that this early contact between the commission and other parties should not prejudice its decision in any way. That is the purpose of the power in Clause 49 to make regulations regarding the giving of advice, in particular regarding disclosure of the advice more widely, and to the public in general. Amendment No. 208 would require requests for advice and advice given by the commission to be made available to the public.
These regulations will be published in due course, and while I am not therefore able to give details of what they will say, they are likely, for example, to make provision for minutes of meetings, notes of telephone conversations or advice from the commission to be available to all parties and the public in general, in an easily and widely accessible format. I echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, about making sure that people with disabilities have access to that information as well. That will help to ensure that it is clear to everyone that the commission acts impartially, and that the advice-giving process is as open as possible.
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It would not, however, be appropriate to require that all advice requested and given be made available to the public, as Amendment No. 208 would require. I must stress that freedom of information legislation already provides a regime for determining when information should be made generally available, and in what circumstances information should not be made available to the public. We have added the Infrastructure Planning Commission to the list of bodies that are subject to the requirement of freedom of information legislation, and the normal provisions for disclosure and exemptions will apply.
Amendment No. 205 would alter Clause 49 to provide that the commission's advice about the making of representations should include advice on making oral submissions and the cross-examination of witnesses. I reassure the Committee that the provisions of the Bill in respect of advice also extend to oral representation. I can also confirm that it is the intention that advice will cover details of procedures, including the rules on when it might request cross-examination.
In conclusion, I should also like to underline the work that the Government are undertaking to ensure that people have access to information and advice on planning generally. We have announced that we will be nearly doubling the planning aid grant to £3.2 million this year, to enable more people to benefit from free independent advice to help them comment on proposals, make representations at inquiries, or submit a good planning application. Community planning programmes exist in each region in the UK to identify groups that have previously been excluded from the planning system or are disadvantaged from years of not having a voice, and the planning portal website also provides tools and information to help people find out about planning in their area and assist them in making applications electronically as well as submitting and tracking appeals online.
I understand the concerns expressed by noble Lords, but I hope that I have reassured the Committee that advice given by the IPC will be, and will be seen to be, transparent and fair to all parties. We are committed to making it easier for people to engage in the planning system generally, and the provisions in the Bill build on and enhance that commitment. I hope, therefore, that the noble Lord will be prepared to withdraw his amendment.
Baroness Hamwee: Before the noble Lord responds, if he wishes to pursue this matter at a later stage—I assume that he will not today—it would be helpful if he could be clear about a point that caused confusion. Amendment No. 204 suggests that the Secretary of State provides for the Secretary of State to give advice, or another body. I think that is where the confusion arose.
Lord Dixon-Smith: I apologise to the Committee if there is some confusion. The intention behind the amendment was that the Secretary of State should make provisions about the giving of advice by an
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I am grateful to the Minister. Unknowingly, he has been remarkably helpful. One of the first tasks of the commission will undoubtedly be to read the record of the processes by which the legislation was arrived at. Undoubtedly, the answers he has given me, if they do nothing else, will guide the IPC on how to deal with the question of advice to applicants. We always have this wretched business on the Floor of the House of flying blind in many ways, but in answering us the Minister has inadvertently given the IPC a framework for doing its job. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 205 to 209 not moved.]
Clause 50 [Obtaining information about interests in land]:
Earl Cathcart moved Amendment No. 210:
210: Clause 50, page 28, line 18, at end insert—
“( ) The applicant shall pay the recipient’s reasonable costs of complying with the notice.”,
The noble Earl said: Clause 50(2) states:
“The Commission may authorise the applicant to serve a notice on a person”
to give the applicant in writing the name and address of all those with an interest in the land in question. Clause 50 goes on to state that the recipient of the notice commits an offence if he does not supply accurate information within 14 days and will be liable to pay a level 5 fine, which I understand to be £5,000.
We have no problem with the need for the applicant to find out all those with an interest in the land in question, but this clause creates an onus, in supplying that information, on any of those listed in subsection (3). It could be an occupier, freeholder, mortgagee, lessee, receiver of rent or those who manage or arrange the letting of the land. Our Amendment No. 210 states:
“The applicant shall pay the recipient’s reasonable costs of complying with the notice”.
This amendment was moved by my honourable friend Robert Neill in another place, but the Minister, John Healey, replied:
“The only type of information that may be obtained using that power is a person’s name and address. In those circumstances, I think that the hon. Gentleman accepts that the costs of compliance are likely to be negligible”.—[Official Report, Commons, Planning Bill Committee, 24/1/08; col. 433.]
Unfortunately, the matter was not pressed further.
If only it were that simple. We know that property law and ownership in this country are far from simple. Let me give the Committee one example. A pensioner is the freehold owner of a property which he converted into flats in the 1980s. He let all the flats on long leases and subsequently there have been many sub-leases of each flat. How on earth does he supply the accurate names and addresses of the current interested parties within 14 days so as not to be fined £5,000? In the real
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I suggest that, other than in the simplest of inquiries, there may well be costs involved which would be onerous on the affected recipient of the notice, regardless of whether the project goes ahead or not, but peanuts for the applicants who, after all, will be large organisations. Meanwhile, poor Joe Bloggs the pensioner might be fined £5,000 if he does not provide accurate information within 14 days, on top of the costs that he may already have incurred. No doubt other Members of this Committee will be able to cite far more complex examples of the time and cost involved in providing this accurate information.
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That brings me on to our Amendment No. 211, which would increase the number of days to comply with the notice from 14 to 28. We can all give examples of why 14 days might be too short a time. The recipient of the notice might be on holiday, in hospital or away on work commitments; or, indeed, the recipient’s professional advisers—lawyer or agent—might be away for similar reasons. More importantly, however, because of the sheer complexity of and complications in ascertaining the ownership or interests in a property, in the real world it may be physically impossible to comply with the notice in 10 working days. I hope that the Minister will agree that an extra 10 working days is not unreasonable. To use the earlier analogy of my noble friend Lord Jenkins, when he said that he wished we could get a response to our letters to Ministers within 28 days, in this clause Ministers are only giving themselves 14 days to reply to letters or risk a fine of £5,000. I beg to move.
Lord Cameron of Dillington: I put my name to Amendment No. 211. I shall not back it up with such complicated urban examples as the noble Earl has given us about leaseholders and so on down the line. I was merely thinking about someone on holiday or about to go on a Christmas break, or a simple farmer or landowner who might be harvesting or lambing. I know several farmers who do not answer their mail during the lambing season, and who do not even open it during the harvest. So 14 days is seriously insufficient for them to be able to get to grips with answering such a request.
I was not going to speak to Amendment No. 210, but a thought occurred to me while the noble Earl was speaking. I know that this amendment applies to a specific expense in the clause. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, and I were speaking earlier about individuals having to employ professionals and teams of people to be able to respond to the IPC’s consultation process. Maybe the Minister can inform me whether expenses are available to the ordinary applicant, a landowner,
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The Earl of Caithness: I support my noble friend on Amendment No. 211. It is a good opportunity for the Minister to tear up his brief, which will have “Resist” at the top, and say, “Yes, I think this is absolutely right”. He would get a lot of good will, and it might be the first major concession on the Bill after three and half days of churning through it. It really has far too short a timetable.
The noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington, raised the point that I was going to make about farmers. He also touched on my other point: public holidays. Should the notice be served on 20 December, for instance, it is likely that somebody will fall foul of these requirements. I encourage the Minister to open the door of the cage, step out a little and say, “Yes, we will accept this”.
Baroness Andrews: You’d better not.
Lord Patel of Bradford: I am told that I had better not be brave. The only type of information that may be obtained using the power in Clause 50 is the name and address of a person. Therefore, we believe that the costs of compliance with a notice are likely to be negligible. The noble Earl said that this matter was not pressed in the other place and gave interesting examples of instances where it could take a little longer. I have no briefing on that. I shall ask officials to look into it and I shall write to the noble Earl. Nevertheless, we would not expect the commission to authorise the serving of a notice in circumstances where the applicant could readily obtain the information by other means; for example, by applying for a Land Registry search. The power in Clause 50 by which the commission is able to authorise the service of this type of information notice by a promoter is intended to be used exceptionally; for example, where details cannot be readily obtained from the Land Registry. In these circumstances, the amendment serves little purpose. I therefore urge the noble Earl to withdraw it.
As regards Amendment No. 211, it is important that a mechanism is in place to ensure that where ownership information cannot be readily obtained from the Land Registry, the required information can be obtained within a reasonable time by a promoter and/or applicant.
The purpose of Clause 50 is to give the commission the power to authorise a promoter or applicant to serve a notice on the occupier of the land, anyone who receives rent for it, manages it, is a mortgagee or has an interest in the land requiring them to provide the names and addresses of people with an interest in the land.
The clause specifies that a person who is served with such a notice should have a minimum of 14 days to respond. I do not believe that this is unreasonable. We should bear in mind that this is the minimum period that can be specified in the notice. Clause 50(5)
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Moreover, the Bill provides that a person with a reasonable excuse for non-compliance would not fall foul of these provisions. Someone would not fall foul of the offence if they were able to provide a reasonable excuse for not complying; for example, if they were on holiday. I am not entirely sure whether a lambing season would be considered a reasonable excuse for someone not opening mail, but I am sure that excuse could be put forward. Clearly, a person being on holiday would be considered a reasonable excuse which would not fall foul of this provision. As I say, these provisions are based on Section 5A of the Acquisition of Land Act 1981, which was added to the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004. Without this power it would be possible for a landowner opposed to a potential development to cause delay and frustrate the process of providing infrastructure projects of national significance in a timely and cost-effective manner. This would not be in the national interest.
Clause 50 is reasonable. It provides adequate safeguards to ensure that someone would fall foul of the provisions only where there was an intention to do so. In both cases, it seems clear that 14 days is a reasonable minimum period to specify, and I therefore urge the noble Earl to withdraw the amendment.
Earl Cathcart: I thank those who supported these amendments. I was interested to hear the Minister say that he would take away the measure and reconsider part of it. To our mind costs are involved. This is not a simple matter. Ownership of land is extremely complicated. Advice will have to be sought to get the right answer about who all the interested parties might be. They may be people who have rights of way or easements. Charities, property companies and trusts may be involved. It is not that simple. We still believe that 14 days is a very short period. I know that the Bill says,
and that therefore the period could be longer than that. However, it is always tempting for the commission to say, “How much notice do we have to give under the Bill? It says 14 days. OK, it will be 14 days”. That is the problem. There needs to be a bit of common sense and logic about when the notices are put forward. I look forward to reading the Minister’s remarks in his letter.
Lord Cameron of Dillington: Before the amendment is withdrawn, will the Minister reply, or undertake to reply, to my request about the costs of applications generally? Will he write to me on that?
Lord Patel of Bradford: I will certainly write to the noble Lord on that.
Earl Cathcart: I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
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