Lord Taylor of Blackburn: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I should like to make a personal Statement. On 22 October, during exchanges on an Oral Question tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Ezra, on winter energy supplies, I asked a supplementary question about gas storage. On reflection, I should have declared an interest, which appears in the register of non-parliamentary interests, in a company called Canatxx Energy Ventures Limited. I humbly apologise to the House.
Lord Dubs asked Her Majestys Government:
Whether they will review their plans to build Titan prisons in light of recent projections of future prison populations.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Bach): My Lords, large prison complexes are about more than just additional capacity. They will enable us to seize an important opportunity to modernise the prison estate by decommissioning worn-out, ineffective prisons, and use these gains in efficiency to support improvements in the delivery of rehabilitation by delivering the interventions which help turn prisoners away from a life of crime.
Lord Dubs: My Lords, I welcome any improvement in the prison estate, but will the Government consider pausing in their plans to build Titan prisons until they can review more fully the nature of the prison population, particularly the numbers of mentally ill, many of whom might do better with treatment elsewhere than in the prisons?
Lord Bach: My Lords, we await the report by my noble friend Lord Bradley into the mental health issue which is due in December this year. The most recent projections show that 94,200 places will be needed by 2014 and we aim to provide 96,000 placeshardly a great margin. If the end-of-custody licence scheme were to come to an end, we would need an additional 1,300 places. However, I have to emphasise that the projections are based around estimates, and estimates are not an exact science.
Lord Elton: My Lords, the Minister has emphasised the importance of turning prisoners away from crime.
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It is also highly desirable for the stable running of a prison and
What has happened to change the Governments enthusiastic acceptance of that view?
Lord Bach: My Lords, nothing has happened to change our enthusiastic support of that proposition. We are looking to build the larger prisons in areas where there is a large amount of demand.
Lord Bach: My Lords, I am afraid that is the uncomfortable truth. At the moment, of course, many prisoners have to be dispersed a long way from where they live, sometimes to smaller, sometimes to larger prisons. We need new prisons in certain parts of the country, and when these larger prisons are in place it will be easier for families and friends to visit those incarcerated.
Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords, taking into account delays which are inevitable in the processes of building prisons, what is the earliest date on which it is expected that the first of these prisons will receive the first prisoner?
Lord Bach: My Lords, it is not possible to answer the noble Lord directly. He knows that consultation on the operation and direction of these larger prisons is taking place. That is due to report soon. When the report is made public, it will be easier to say when the first larger prison will open.
The Lord Bishop of Portsmouth: My Lords, in ancient Greek mythology, the Titans were a pretty unsavoury lot. One of them cut off the unmentionable parts of his father with a sickle, married one of his sisters, swallowed five of his children and finally, along with his siblings, was cast into the dreaded Lake Tartarus. Will the Minister comment on that scenario in relation to these horrendous prisons, about which, in spite of his wonderfully sanguine demeanour and voice this afternoon, many of us are deeply sceptical?
Lord Bach: My Lords, that is why we now call them larger prisons.
Lord Henley: My Lords, as the Government have made up their mind fairly comprehensively on Titan prisons, or what the Minister has now rechristened large prison complexes, why are they consulting the public and others on their future? Have they decided to ignore the consultation in advance of its results?
Lord Bach: My Lords, I think that the noble Lord has misunderstood the consultation. It is not about the principle of whether larger prisons are appropriate, but about how best to organise, direct and manage such prisons.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine: My Lords
The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): My Lords, there is time for everyone. If the Lib Dems will go first, there will be time for the Labour Benches.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine: My Lords, the Minister will have seen the Justice Secretarys speech from Monday, where he almost crowed that the UK spends most in the OECD on law and order. Does he subscribe to the view that that is a good thing, or does he subscribe to Professor Ian Loaders view, expressed in yesterdays Guardian, that:
In a civilised society, punishment should be a matter for sorrow and regret, not a badge of political pride?
Lord Bach: My Lords, I have read the speech fully and agree with every word of it. What I am proud of is the significant and sustained drop in crimeit has fallen by one-third since 1997which represents an enormous success in social policy. It is an achievement of which we should all be proud. We should be proud of the cultural and structural reform of the police, of prisons, of probation, of the courts and of youth justice, which has breathed life back into a system that had too many deficiencies in the past.
Baroness Corston: My Lords, will the Minister confirm that Government do not plan to provide any Titan prisons for women? He will know that the Government accepted 41 of the 43 recommendations that I made in my report two years ago, where I said that women should be held be in small custodial units close to home. Will he confirm that that is still government policy in relation to women prisoners?
Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, what is the Governments budget for tackling the cycle of deprivation in families to prevent offending and reoffending, compared with the £2 billion that they propose to spend on Titans, which are almost universally condemned?
Lord Bach: My Lords, I am afraid that I cannot give the noble Baroness the first figure that she wants, but she should know that a huge amount of public money is being spent on what she referred to in the first part of her question. We will continue to spend that money, because we want to keep people out of prison. However, it is unfortunately necessary, unless the noble Baroness disagrees, for persistent, violent and dangerous offenders to be put in prison.
Lord Selsdon asked Her Majestys Government:
What steps they are taking to reduce the amount of unsolicited mail delivered to residential addresses.
Lord Brett: My Lords, the Government have a voluntary agreement with the Direct Marketing Association which covers the promotion of the Mailing Preference Service. The Mailing Preference Service allows householders to opt out of receiving addressed direct mail. We have also encouraged the DMA to develop the Your ChoicePreference Service which was launched earlier this year. Your Choice allows householders to opt out of receiving unaddressed mail from DMA members. The Royal Mail also operates an opt-out service to stop the door-to-door unaddressed mail that it carries. The preference services that are in place allow people to choose, and cover approximately 90 per cent of addressed and unaddressed mail.
Lord Selsdon: My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for that helpful reply. I had not realised that BERR stands, as someone has pointed out, for Business, Enterprise, Refuse and Rubbish. Can he confirm that direct mail which is not utilised and goes into a sack marked junk mail effectively is junk mail and that it creates litter and rubbish? In general, households may receive up to two tonnes of it a year. What is the impact of that on the environment?
Lord Brett: My Lords, I did not recognise the noble Lords description of BERR but I do recognise his point about waste, an issue which the Government are tackling with the DMA. A producer responsibility agreement was signed in 2003 to increase the levels of the industrys recycling of household waste caused by what we would call junk mail. Just last week it led to the signing of an industry-wide standard that was developed following a period of discussion with the British Standards Institution and is the first of its type in any commercial sector. It is expected that the standard will be published before the end of this year, and its adoption will support the drive to raise recycling limits within the industry.
Lord Clarke of Hampstead: My Lords, I declare an interest as a former postman and union official. Does my noble friend the Minister agree that the revenue generated by unaddressed mail contributes greatly to the resources available to Royal Mail to maintain its obligations under the universal service that it is required by law to provide? Would he care to inform the House of the amount of revenue that Royal Mail receives annually from this source? Could I also ask him
Lord Clarke of Hampstead: All right, my Lords, I wont ask himbut it is about Postcomm. I think that he would agree that if it were not for Postcomms stranglehold, things such as unaddressed mail would not be so necessary because Royal Mail could have the right pricing policy for the items it delivers.
Lord Brett: My Lords, I think that my problem is not unsolicited mail but maybe unsolicited questions. Perhaps I may deal with the first two and pass on the third. The Royal Mail receives about £2 billion from the production of direct advertising mail, which accounts for 15 per cent of the UK postal market. It is an enormous industry. Some £4.8 billion is spent on
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Lord Razzall: My Lords, I am sure the Minister will accept that anyone who has been in charge of a political campaign is unlikely to want restrictions on unsolicited or unwanted mail, as it would stop political campaigning as we have known it. However, does he agree that there is some illogicality in the fact that I can write him a letter even though he may not want to receive it, but I cannot send him an e-mail unless he has indicated that he wishes to receive it from me?
Lord Brett: My Lords, there is an interesting comparison to be made between direct mail marketing, which brings forward some 4,000 complaints per year, and the scams and other forms of direct mailing on the internet, which generate 10 times that number. Indeed, the number of complaints about direct mailing is falling.
Lord Geddes: My Lords, in support of my noble friends supplementary question, will the Minister use his best endeavours and those of the Government to discourage at the very least if not ban the wrapping of articles sent through the post in plastic that is non-recyclable?
Lord Brett: Another welcome, unsolicited question, my Lords, but I do not have an answer on plastic wrapping. The Government regard direct mailing as a legitimate form of advertising sales but we want to ensure that those who do not want to receive it do not have to. As for plastic wrapping, my first successful Question Time will occur when I do not have to say, I will write to the noble Lord. This is not my first successful Question Time. I will write to the noble Lord.
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, does the Minister agree that he is on a hiding to nothing and cannot win on this issue? Is he aware that I am entirely dressed by junk mail? I want some of it, but not the rest. How can you possibly divide the two?
Lord Brett: My Lords, there can be no more elegant advertisement for direct mailing and the values of purchasing from it. I cannot add anything to that question.
Lord Greaves: My Lords, where I live, we get a big fat monthly newspaper delivered by the Royal Mail and produced by the Conservative Party. I think that nobody else will deliver it. Will the Minister put the noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, in touch with his noble friend the noble Lord, Lord Ashcroft, who is reliably rumoured to be funding this rubbish?
Lord Brett: My Lords, I have a confession to make. As a political junkie, I welcome any mail from opposition parties. It allows me to be more educated about the policies that they have, or pretend to have.
Lord Renton of Mount Harry: My Lords, perhaps I may follow up the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington. Might I advise the Minister?
Lord Renton of Mount Harry: My Lords, I think that it is worth advising him. Last week I received four plastic bags from this House containing junk mail. I weighed them: they came to 19 pounds in weight. Would it not be helpful if we could add a new item to our expenses, covering the costs, time and trouble of getting rid of this junk mail?
Lord Brett: My Lords, first, I welcome advice from anyone, being a very new, inexperienced and not very efficient operator at the Dispatch Box. However, I have a problem with junk mail, because I only know that it is junk when I have opened it and decided that I do not want it.
Lord Williamson of Horton asked Her Majestys Government:
What progress has been made in providing age-appropriate accommodation and care for children and young people in mental health hospitals in line with the Mental Health Act 2007.
Baroness Thornton: My Lords, I am pleased to report progress. In 2007-08, £31 million in capital funding was allocated to 17 projects designed to help to eliminate the inappropriate use of adult psychiatric wards for children and young people. This is a start. Additionally, the National Institute for Mental Health in England is undertaking a programme of works to support hospitals on this issue. The latest figures for 2008-09 show that the number of under-18 year-olds in adult psychiatric wards is at its lowest since the collection of figures started in 2005.
Lord Williamson of Horton: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that reply, and in particular for the factual information. The noble Baroness knows that a very large number of noble Lords voted to put into the Mental Health Act 2007 the requirement that the environment for children and young adults in mental hospitals should be suitable, having regard to their age. That was to correct a most unsatisfactory situation. We now want to put improvements into practice rapidly and effectively. Is the Minister aware that there are disturbing reports, for example in the Times of 1 October, that hundreds of children and teenagers are still being put into adult psychiatric wards? While I welcome the action to which the Minister referredit is a good startwill she assure the House that she will monitor the situation and continue to press for action to complete the programme within the timescale laid down in the Mental Health Act 2007?
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