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Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 15 [Supply of social security information]:
Clause 16 [Supply of information by public bodies]:
[Amendments Nos. 17 to 19 not moved.]
Baroness Verma moved Amendment No. 20:
20: After Clause 18, insert the following new Clause—
The Secretary of State shall commission an independent review into the effectiveness of the provision of careers advice in England and the appropriateness of a single all-age advice and guidance service as established in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.”
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, the amendments in this group were tabled in Committee and I have tabled them again today for slightly different reasons. Amendment No. 20 inserts a new clause on careers education. The noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, while supporting the amendment, suggested that it could sit better in a different part of the Bill. That may be so, but I am less concerned about that than with the meaning of the amendment. I would like the Secretary of State to conduct a review into how effective the provision of careers advice is in England and whether it would benefit from a single, all-age advice and guidance service.
I have read carefully the response of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, in Committee. He said that he recognised that the reforms under way for 14 to 19 year-olds would present a challenge to information, advice and guidance providers and that the Government would need to focus on continuous improvements and bringing the performance of all providers up to the highest standards. Yet while he acknowledged that the system was imperfect, he concluded his remarks in a somewhat offhand way by saying that the Government had conducted significant reviews of Connexions in recent years and they did not believe that a review of itself was likely to be a lever to drive up standards. I am sorry that I am repeating the previous Minister’s words to the current Minister, but I feel that the Government have understood my argument. I am not seeking a review for the sake of having a review—that would be a waste of time, effort and money—but I have said previously in this place that I do not believe that Connexions is up to scratch as a careers adviser. If, as the noble Lord said, the reforms affecting 14 to
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As noble Lords will see from the wording of the amendment, I am not calling for a review of the system in a vacuum; I am calling specifically for it to be compared with systems in place in the other countries of the United Kingdom. I am well aware that devolution to the smaller UK countries means that different parts of the Kingdom may have different policies, but that should not exclude each country from looking at what the others are doing. If we spot a good idea in practice somewhere else, we would be foolish, to say the least, not to consider it. That is what will drive up standards, not the mechanisms of reviewing the system. Like all noble Lords, I want to see the best possible careers advice provision to help young people at all stages of their education to make the most appropriate decisions for their future. I hope that the Minister will give due consideration to this proposal.
I have brought the second amendment in this group back today because when I moved it in Committee, the Minister, who was not the Minister at that stage, was caught unawares and did not feel that she could address the matter fully. She promised to take the issue away and consider it. I trust that she has now been able to do so. The amendment makes a simple point. It allows young people to have direct contact with those who might be considered role models in their chosen career, training or education path.
As I said before, I applaud the Government for including in Clause 61 the means to provide information electronically. The internet is a useful tool, and young people happily use it to inform themselves as well as for entertainment. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, said in July in support of this amendment,
- “face-to-face interviews are extremely important and we should make sure that we do not simply rely on the internet”.—[Official Report, 21/7/08; col. 1515.]
My amendment would make sure that as many options as possible are considered to help young people get a good feel for the decisions they must take on the direction they are going in. I hope that when the Minister was reflecting on this she saw that I intend this amendment to be helpful and to allow young people to arm themselves with as much useful information as they can before they embark on their future. I beg to move.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Verma, said that in Committee I said that her Amendment No. 20 was in the wrong place. I maintain that it is still in the wrong place. It is between a chapter on local authorities and one on employers. The right place to put this amendment is before Clause 60, which is about careers education. However, the noble Baroness persists in putting it early on, which leads us to discuss careers education now.
I supported her then, and I support her now, in maintaining that there is much to be improved in the information, advice and guidance given to young people and the careers education they are given in schools. I know that the Government are doing their best at that
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On Amendment No. 67, the noble Baroness, Lady Verma, quoted me saying that face-to-face interviews are important. We cannot rely just on information, advice and guidance through the internet or over the telephone. The interview with the careers adviser at the appropriate point in school is vital. We cannot do away with careers advisers in schools; a specifically trained Connexions careers adviser is vital. There is no reason why teachers should not provide careers education, but they must be given training. If we are going to use general teachers, they should have specific CPD training on careers education. Many of them do not know about issues outside.
Amendment No. 67 is concerned with getting specific information about particular careers and talking to people who are pursuing them about what they involve. I mentioned last time, and I shall mention again, the website horsesmouth.co.uk. Another website called Vitae is being developed by the Cambridge-based Careers Research and Advisory Centre. It involves people who practise particular careers talking about what they do. In that sense, an internet exchange is quite useful. Horsesmouth.co.uk is interactive, so a young person can ask questions of the person who has pursued a career.
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Amendment No. 68, a little amendment in my name and the names of my noble friends Lady Walmsley and Lady Garden, seeks to put right what seems an anomaly. Sections 43 to 45 of the Education Act 1997 give the Secretary of State the right to extend by regulation the scope of careers education and guidance. The Secretary of State has used the powers in Section 45B to extend the scope of careers education to primary schools and lower year groups in secondary schools, but it does not apply to those aged 16 and over—precisely the 16 and 17 year-olds whom this legislation catches.
It is an anomaly. In responding to an amendment that I tabled in Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, said that it did not matter as those young people get it anyhow. If I may say so, that was not a good enough response. If there is a duty on schools to provide careers education and information, advice and guidance on careers, it is appropriate that the duty should include those aged 16 or 17. Our simple little amendment provides that the Minister may by regulations extend that provision—it is only by regulation that the Minister has to operate—and makes good that anomaly.
The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, I will speak briefly on Amendment No. 67. I pricked up my ears when the noble Baronesses, Lady Verma and Lady Sharp,
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That prompts me to ask the Minister about Criminal Records Bureau checks, because, while children are concerned that people working with them have those checks, they can be an obstacle for people working outside to coming in and engaging with young people. Particularly, it appears that there is often quite a long delay in processing those checks. Perhaps the Minister might write me a little note on what is being done to speed up Criminal Records Bureau checks and ensuring that they are not repeated too often. That would get the balance right between ensuring that someone is safe and avoiding too much bureaucracy.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, I hope that I am not out of order in addressing these amendments, and particularly the last of them, Amendment No. 68. I do so because I tabled an amendment in Committee on non-stereotypical careers advice and work placements and I was so reassured by the Minister’s answer that I did not put down any amendments for Report. However, I have since had some correspondence from the Equality and Human Rights Commission, which was very disappointed to learn that,
for employers, schools and colleges does not, in fact, mention that issue once. Of course, that has rather upset the commission. It believes, not unnaturally, that this must be addressed because the current work placement model is deficient. Obviously it can operate in a number of ways. Those who are well connected find their own placements, usually of good quality; some people will choose from lists because lists can be presented to them; and the third group will be allocated to placements. That means that some people are still being stereotyped in the decisions made for them. As we all know, they will be those who have less information, who are more likely to be at the bottom of the pile and who have less access to those who can advise them more carefully. The commission found, for example, that only 15 per cent of girls and boys received any advice on non-traditional placements.
I ask the Minister to again look at this area to see whether an outline of how schools and employers can tackle stereotyping in work placements can be produced. A statement of information and guidance should not be limited because of assumptions about gender, race, disability and so on. Education-business partnerships could perhaps be developed, with careers advisers being more proactive in supporting and/or finding non-traditional placements.
I hope I have not taken the Minister unawares but I received this brief only this morning and this is too good an opportunity not to bring it up now, not least
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Baroness Morris of Yardley: My Lords, I do not support Amendment No. 20, not because I do not think careers guidance is important—I do—but I am not sure that a review at this time is needed. I support the content of the debate about the importance of careers education and guidance and I should like to make a few brief points.
As we move more towards a personalised curriculum and give people more choice, the more important careers education and guidance becomes. However, there is a danger in concentrating too much on the provision of information. It is absolutely crucial that the provision of information is accurate, timely and of high quality, but that by itself will not produce a good guidance system which is supportive of people in making appropriate decisions at appropriate times. That is far more complex and difficult to legislate for. Will the Minister assure the House that her department is considering how young people make decisions and what support they need?
In the north-east there is a 14 to 19 commission which includes all the partners at regional, school, FE and employer levels. They are coming together to try to make the 14 to 19 agenda work. I have the privilege of chairing the commission at the moment. We have set up a youth board so that young people can advise us on what they think. Interestingly, they put proper careers education and guidance at the top of their agenda. They did so because they felt it was the part of the system that was not working. This part of the legislation covering careers education and guidance is for young people and this is a time when we particularly need to hear their views and their voice. Perhaps my noble friend will also reassure us that there is provision for the department to listen to young people about how they think careers education and guidance can be best provided to them and at what point in their lives.
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, I hope I can reassure not only my noble friend but all those who have spoken in the debate that we see careers advice, information and guidance as being extremely important and worthy of a great deal of attention at the highest levels within the department. I start by responding to Amendment No. 67 tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Verma. She is right: it is the amendment that came up when I was surprised to be sitting in the hot seat. I am delighted that the noble Baroness has tabled the amendment for debate again today so that I can respond. She explained very eloquently the need for young people to have access to the widest possible arsenal of tools to help them in making their decisions about future career options.
The national service, Connexions Direct, offers information, advice and support to young people in England. It has been extremely successful. The service provides profiles of more than 800 jobs through its jobs4u careers database, which is an important resource. This does not detract from other resources, such as horsesmouth.co.uk. The jobs4u careers database includes
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Amendment No. 20, which would require the Secretary of State to commission an independent review, is not necessary. Noble Lords will be aware that there have been reviews on this subject, as the noble Baroness highlighted. They have been undertaken in recent years. That is not to say that further consideration of this vital subject is not important, but the end-to-end review of careers education and guidance, which reported in July 2005, and the Leitch review of skills, completed in December 2006, also addressed the issues of careers services for adults.
We have listened carefully to the arguments for an all-age careers service and we do not disagree with them per se. We see that there is a need for a joined-up service that meets the needs of people at all ages. Teenagers face different challenges from adults, not least learning choices and the personal issues associated with the transition to adulthood. The Connexions service, working in partnership with schools and colleges, is best placed to meet these needs. Clause 56 will transfer, as noble Lords know, the delivery of the Connexions service to local authorities. This will help local authorities to embed Connexions within integrated youth support arrangements to improve support for the most vulnerable people, which must be key.
The Government have accepted the recommendation of the noble Lord, Lord Leitch, to establish a universal adult careers service, which will be operational from 2010-11. The key elements of this service are described in the Adult Advancement and Careers Service prospectus, which was launched yesterday, I believe. We will ensure that links are made between the adult and young people’s careers services; for example, through case conferences between adult advisers and Connexions advisers. We are talking about an all-ages strategy, which is very important.
Amendment No. 68 would extend the requirement for schools to provide careers education to include learners aged 16 to 18. Section 46 of the 1997 Act, which is the focus of this amendment, already allows regulations to be made to extend the age for careers education in schools and requires further education institutions to provide a programme of careers education. Therefore, new primary legislation would not be required to extend these duties to pupils above the age of 16.
I do not believe that this amendment is necessary, but I believe that the subject is extremely important. High-quality, impartial information, advice and guidance help young people to make choices that position them for success in life. As my noble friend highlighted, and
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4.30 pm
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: My Lords, I take on board what the Minister says about primary legislation not being necessary. However, the Government have not used their powers of regulation to extend it to 16, 17 and 18 year-olds. Are they proposing to do so?
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, I am looking for advice from my colleagues, and they are shaking their heads. I hope that I will be able to convince the noble Baroness that we have a strong enough commitment. We see this as very important. It will become more important as our 14 to 19 reforms offer young people a wider choice of learning and increasing numbers stay on in education and training. Diplomas are delivered by partnerships of schools, further education colleges and other learning providers. To begin delivering diplomas, each consortium must demonstrate that it offers high-quality information, advice and guidance to young people. This is a key part of our strategy.
My department is offering support to all consortia to ensure that the guidance they offer meets our national quality standards. Those standards, which were debated recently, focus on independent high-quality advice for young people. We are also working with the National College for School Leadership and the Learning and Skills Improvement Service to raise the profile of careers advice and to help school and FE leaders improve the quality of their provision.
This is a challenging agenda, but we can also take time to celebrate success. The recent Ofsted review of 14 to 19 implementation found that the quality of information, advice and guidance was good or better in 12 of the 16 partnerships visited and at least satisfactory in three others. That is encouraging, but we need to continue to improve information, advice and guidance services.
These reforms are important and I hope that they will be welcomed. We will put forward further proposals in the spring in support of provisions in the forthcoming apprenticeship Bill and the new education and skills Bill, in which we will cover the development of the adult advancement service.
Officials met with the Equality and Human Rights Commission this week, and we are taking forward its concerns about the work-related learning guidance. I shall be very happy to talk to the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, about this at any stage should she wish to do so. I am also happy to write to the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, about Criminal Records Bureau checks. That is another huge area of interest to me, but now is probably not the moment to go into it in detail.
Baroness Verma: My Lords, I thank the Minister and all noble Lords who have spoken. On understanding information, it is really important to include personal interaction so that young people can raise issues and concerns that are not always addressed through the
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I will consider carefully the Minister’s comments. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 22 [Financial penalty for contravention of section 21]:
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin moved Amendment No. 21:
21: Clause 22, page 12, line 21, leave out paragraph (a) and insert—
“(a) particulars of the contravention of section 21 in respect of which the penalty is imposed,”
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I welcome the careful scrutiny that the Select Committee on the Constitution gave to the Bill. I also welcome the Committee’s detailed and helpful comments on the duties on employers, the related sanctions and the rights of objection and appeal which were set out in a letter from the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, to my noble friend Lord Adonis on 11 June. The Government agree that it is extremely important that fair procedures are followed. My noble friend undertook in his reply to the letter to consider whether there was a need to strengthen the provisions in the Bill to make it clear that employers will be able to challenge a decision by a local authority to take enforcement action and that there is a satisfactory appeal route.
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