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The difficulty for the Government and the IPC is how to break through the barrier to achieving the production of the amount of renewable energy to which the Government have committed themselves, while protecting precisely the kind of thing described by my noble friend and on which there has been so much debate. The place to do it is in the national planning statements. They should make it clear to those who are going to make applications based on a national planning statement for energy—I do not know how many statements there will be; one overarching statement for energy and perhaps others for more specific areas of energy—that they have to have regard to the aesthetic and human values related to these issues as well as the need to press ahead with achieving our environmental objectives. That is why I want to speak strongly in favour of these amendments, although I am not particularly wedded to the actual wording. If we are going to make sense of our energy policy we will do so not only by paying attention to the climate change legislation, but also by paying attention to this legislation.
Let me say this to the Minister: I do not envy the officials who will have to draw up national policy statements which are going to have regard to these multifarious objectives. However, we cannot go on with applications simply being held up indefinitely because of the opposition of local planning authorities. That is what this legislation is supposed to be about: major infrastructure projects of national significance, and no one can deny that wind farms fall firmly into that category. Here is a classic example of how all three parts of the legislative structure Parliament is now putting in place actually hang together.
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I cannot sit down without telling a story that the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, may well remember because it relates to a wind farm he was concerned with in Cumbria. A cartoon in one of the papers showed a man rushing in and waving a piece of paper at his wife, saying, “We’ve won! We’re not going to have a wind farm, we’re going to get a nuclear power station instead”.
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Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords, this group is a bit of a jumble containing amendments on climate change, important landscapes and design. It is a pity that we have not had an opportunity for separate debates on all three, but of course we need to make progress. I am glad to have the opportunity to say a word about the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Reay. He rightly takes me somewhat to task for omitting a reference to “important landscapes” in Amendment No. 64, tabled in my name and which we will debate later. The reason I did not include the phrase is because, in the formulation of that proposed new clause, I have drawn on the language of existing legislation and it was rather difficult to bring it in. I am therefore glad that he tabled his amendment. I have every sympathy with it and I am most grateful to him for picking up the baton. I hope that the House will look favourably on his proposal.
It was my intention to present a bouquet to my noble friend Lady Andrews at this point, but entirely exceptionally she is not in her place. She is there for hour on hour so it is not unreasonable that she may have nipped out for a cup of tea or, more likely, for a conference with her officials. I want to echo the words of my noble friend Lady Whitaker and say that Amendments Nos. 23 and 37 on design are a civilised and important development on the part of the Minister and the Government. I thank the Minister and her colleagues in the DCLG for the thought that they have put into how to promote good design in the new national infrastructure which the development consent regime will herald. My noble friend has responded constructively to the strong views expressed around the House that a requirement for good design should be written plainly on the face of the Bill. I suspect that she has negotiated toughly and effectively with other government departments that did not readily recognise its importance, notwithstanding that good design will save time and money in their projects.
I also thank noble Lords who have spoken in a series of debates in which we have made the case for the importance of good design and for the Government finding more effective ways to promote it. There is a world of difference between reliance on generalised aspiration in policy statements and specific duties laid in statute; between the policy for the time being of the Government and the settled will of Parliament. With these amendments, the Secretary of State will have no choice but to insist that all concerned in the new development consent process take conscious thought and make a genuine effort to achieve a high standard of design whatever kind of infrastructure they have in hand. We could not assume that this would have happened without a clear requirement in statute.
Of course developers and the commission would have sought to achieve something that worked, but
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Lord Cameron of Dillington: My Lords, I support the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Liverpool in his amendments on climate change. First, however, I must apologise to the House because this morning, when I spoke for the first time on Report, I failed to declare my interests in the register, notably as a landowner and farmer and, with particular relevance to the Bill, as chairman of the Charities’ Properties Association.
Climate change is the most important issue of our age. Banking crises, world recessions and even presidential elections might knock it off the front page every now and then but, given its importance to our generation and the next, there could not be anything more important than our climate change agenda. The Government recognise the case being made in the Bill. As the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, mentioned, one of the primary aims of the Bill must be to hasten our ability to react to and fight against the danger of climate change that threatens this country in various ways. I hope the Government will be able to strengthen their own amendments and give more backbone to the Bill on the issue of climate change
Lord Dixon-Smith: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington, has reminded me that I also should have repeated my interest as a landowner at the start of the Report stage. I neglected to do that this morning. That, however, is not the reason why I rise at this point.
The issue of climate change raised by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Liverpool is fundamental to the Government’s programme. He has got it right: there is no doubt that the Bills need to be inextricably linked. The question is whether the Bill and the government amendments go far enough. When planning documents must now definitely contribute to mitigation and so on, the right reverend Prelate’s reference to the words “taking account of” and “having regard to” being in the Bill simply makes the case.
This is a very important point and I am disappointed that the Government have not picked up this relationship and made it plain on the face of the Bill. This is not a place for something to be implicit—it needs to be explicit. The trilogy of Bills that we are considering in this Session will have a profound effect for a very long time. Anything which, heaven help us, contributes to dilution or to the possibility of excuses for dilatory action in the present situation simply is not tolerable. The principle of the Climate Change Bill imposes a very strong and difficult programme which has to begin now and go on at least until 2050. The depth of change that is required over that period will be very
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I offer strong support to the amendments of the right reverend Prelate. I hope that the Minister will find it in his heart to ease his position a little and move towards that of the right reverend Prelate.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, it is a great pleasure to respond to this group of amendments. I know that my noble friend Lord Howarth is a little disappointed that the amendment in which he has a particular interest was not taken separately. I suppose that one would describe this as a portmanteau group of amendments; none the less, we have had a very important discussion.
I very much agree with the noble Lords, Lord Jenkin and Lord Dixon-Smith, that we cannot consider the right reverend Prelate’s amendments in isolation from the Energy Bill and the Climate Change Bill. They come together. I agree with the sentiments of all noble Lords in wanting to ensure that the revised and reformed planning system is as consistent as possible with the Climate Change Bill and with what we are seeking to do in the Energy Bill. The argument between us is where ultimate responsibility lies. The Government firmly believe that ultimate responsibility has to be with the Government themselves and with Ministers. That is the difference in the interpretation of the amendments that I am bringing forward and those of the right reverend Prelate. I do not detect any difference between noble Lords in terms of the importance of making sure that we get this right.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, wants to strengthen Ministers’ hands—I shall come on to the detailed argument later. I, too, want to strengthen Ministers’ hands, but in doing so, we have to ensure that ultimate responsibility lies with Ministers. That is the point that I shall be arguing.
I would hazard a guess that it was after this proposal was debated in Committee that the Government announced the changes they wished to make to the Climate Change Bill and accepted the advice of the Committee on Climate Change, chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Turner, to go for the 80 per cent target. In a sense, that sets the new context in which we should be discussing these amendments. I suggest that even if Ministers wanted to run away from the implication of that in planning terms—which they do not—it would not be possible because the hugely challenging 80 per cent target means that it will be an imperative for Ministers to do what is necessary to ensure that we meet those targets, not because the target has been set, but because we know that meeting the 80 per cent target is the only way that we will contain the temperature rise to 2 degrees centigrade, which is absolutely critical, as the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, clearly pointed out.
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I readily acknowledge the thanks which all Members have offered to the right reverend Prelate for pursuing this point. However, we have reservations about his
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There is no question but that the role of the national policy statement is key. Ensuring at the outset that the policy is right and that appropriate weight is given to the various considerations will mean that they are then appropriately examined at each stage of the process. But here comes the reservation. If we were to place duties on the IPC in respect of policy on climate change or any other matter, there is a risk of detracting from ministerial accountability for policy and undermining the principles on which the new regime is built.
Lord Dixon-Smith: My Lords, is the Minister considering the right question when he says that it is a matter for the IPC to consider? Surely the duty needs to fall ultimately on the applicants. That is the issue that we need to get across. If we followed the amendments of the right reverend Prelate, the contribution to mitigation would be shifted across to the applicant, who would have to show how their application made a contribution. That is an extension of what the Minister is saying. It is not enough to discuss this matter just in the context of the planning commission.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I well understand the noble Lord’s point, but it does not detract from the general thrust of my argument, which is that it is ultimately for Ministers to come to a view on the impact on climate change of a national policy statement. Applications are made within that context. My concern is that we do not detract from ministerial accountability and authority in these matters.
We could have a very good general debate about how we influence developers, communities and applicants to do the right thing in relation to sustainability and climate change. There are many mechanisms under which we do that, with responsibility in a number of government departments. Local authorities have a big role to play, as the noble Lord suggested in an earlier amendment. But the key point is the relationship between Ministers, the national policy statements and the IPC. All I seek to do, in acknowledging the concerns that the right reverend prelate has by introducing government amendments, is to ensure that we do not confuse those responsibilities.
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Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, how does the Minister reconcile what he has just said with the actual words in the amendment? It says:
“Before designating a statement as a national policy statement for the purposes of this Act the Secretary of State must be satisfied”.
The substance of the right reverend Prelate’s amendment is a responsibility on the Secretary of State to be satisfied that,
sustainability, and all those other things. It is the Secretary of State who must be satisfied to that effect. So I do not follow the Minister’s deduction that the amendment in some way diverts the responsibility from where it clearly lies in the amendment, which is with the Secretary of State.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, my reading of the amendments tabled by the right reverend Prelate is that it is a requirement for each national policy statement to contribute directly to the mitigation of climate change. Within the context of the 80 per cent target and the need to ensure that we do everything we can, there may be certain circumstances in which it cannot do that. What I am arguing for is some overall flexibility, with Ministers having accountability.
I stress at once that the concept of sustainable development sits at the heart of planning. This is made explicit in planning policy statement 1, which sets out how the principles of sustainable development apply to planning generally. In 2005, the Government published Securing the Future, a new sustainable development strategy for the UK, which set out five key principles for sustainable development: living within environmental limits; securing a strong, healthy and just society; achieving a sustainable economy; promoting good governance; and using sound science responsibly. The strategy makes it clear that in order for a policy to achieve sustainability, it must integrate all five of those principles, which is necessary if we are to meet the needs of communities while respecting the limits of our environment and resources. We must therefore look at the social, economic and environmental considerations holistically and integrate them in a way that allows us to promote development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs.
It is important to give the House the Government’s understanding of what we mean by sustainable development, which we believe should be the guiding principle for Ministers in preparing national policy statements. That is why Clause 10 places such importance on it.
Issues around climate change—and I speak from my position, wearing my DECC and Defra hats—are very important indeed. The noble Lord, Lord Cameron, made the point that however much we are concerned about financial issues or presidential elections, climate change is the mega-issue that we face. That is why the decision by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change to go for putting the 80 per cent target on to the statute book was so important.
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Despite that, other elements of sustainable development are also important and we must have regard to them. I think that the House might agree that, alongside climate change, we have to take account of the need to secure our long-term energy supply, for example. The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, has powerfully and passionately been asking the House and the Government to ensure security of energy supply. It is also important that we have regard to employment and economic growth. We cannot ignore people’s standard of living and, crucially, other environmental decisions, such as preserving biodiversity.
This is where we come to the nub of the argument, which I anticipated earlier. The amendments tabled by the right reverend Prelate would require that, before the Secretary of State designates a statement or amends a national policy statement, he,
- “must be satisfied that (taken as a whole) the policies ... contribute to the mitigation of, and adaptation to, climate change and to the achievement of sustainable development”.
Amendment No. 51A would separate climate change from sustainable development and introduce a new clause that would require the Secretary of State to draw up and review national policy statements,
Our problem with this is that the amendments would elevate the consideration of climate change to such a degree that the other considerations could be marginalised. There could be risks for other policies, including energy policy.
We have made clear our intention to undergo the transition to a low-carbon economy. It will be in statute, provided that your Lordships accept it when the Bill comes back on Monday week. That is the context in which all these other considerations come to the fore. It is the difference between where we were in Committee and where we are now on Report.
A basic principle of our climate change policy, as emerges in the Climate Change Bill, is that some individual policies may not necessarily contribute to meeting the targets. We have to accept that. As long as our national effort balances and the overall targets, taken together, are met, that is perfectly acceptable. The problem is not philosophical but practical. We do not want to undermine this prospect by requiring each national policy statement to contribute directly to the mitigation of climate change. We think that that would restrict our freedom of manoeuvre, which is why we have reservations about the amendments tabled by the right reverend Prelate. Ultimately, these decisions have to be made by Ministers. They cannot be made by anyone else.
We believe that the amendments that we have tabled create the kind of regime that will enable the concerns of noble Lords to be covered without in the end affecting ministerial responsibility. Our Amendment No. 37 makes it clear that addressing climate change and achieving good design are key and essential elements of the notion of sustainable development. Our amendments aim to highlight the particular importance of climate change and good design but do so as part of the broader sustainable development duty. They make it clear that climate change should be at the forefront of Ministers’ minds when drawing up national policy
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If Clause 10 sets out the principle, Clause 5 will underpin the practice. Amendment No. 25 to Clause 5 requires Ministers to include in each national policy statement an explanation of how the policy takes account of government policy relating to the mitigation of, and adaptation to, climate change. In effect, Ministers must describe how they have carried out their duty under Clause 10 by reference to wider government policy on the mitigation of, and adaptation to, climate change. This will, of course, include the Climate Change Bill once it is in place, so ensuring, as I have said, that national policy statements themselves are drawn up in the context of the targets and policies that it puts in place.
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These duties should then be seen in the wider context of the processes which the Bill puts in place to ensure that the policy set out in national policy statements is appropriate and robust. First, national policy statements will be subject to an appraisal of sustainability, to ensure that environmental, social and economic objectives, including climate change, are properly factored into their development. This will involve an iterative process of collecting information, defining realistic alternatives, identifying sustainability effects and developing mitigation measures. That will then be fully integrated with the wider national policy statement preparation process, involving statutory consultees during key stages and, where necessary, the draft national policy statement will be revised in light of the appraisal of sustainability.
Secondly, national policy statements will be subject to public consultation and, as noble Lords have already debated today, subject to parliamentary scrutiny. If, in the process of scrutiny, Parliament were of the view that climate change—or, indeed, design, which we shall come to in a moment—had not been properly taken account of, it could make a resolution or recommendation in respect of that.
I emphasise that Ministers will be bound by the provisions of the Climate Change Bill once enacted, and will need to ensure that, taken together, government policy achieves the targets that it sets out. This is the key point: it is taken together. It must be seen as a collective government effort. Inevitably there will be some—I hate to say it—swings and roundabouts, but there must also be some balancing between the different national policy statements. In some areas, it will probably not be possible to show a contribution on climate change, but there will be a national interest in taking that policy forward. All of this happens within the context of the 80 per cent target enshrined in legislation. That is a critical point.
Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, before the Minister leaves that point, one of the essential features of the decisions that the commission must take is set out in Clause 101(7), which requires that the panel or council is,
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