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Lord Myners: My Lords, the expertise that the Bank had in the regulation of banks transferred almost en bloc to the FSA.
Lord Geddes: My Lords, I congratulate the Minister on not having a brief in his hand or on the Dispatch Box for either this Question or the first one, an example much to be applauded.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, the noble Lord says that new regulation is on its way. Will that regulation be made entirely in this country by the British Government, the Bank of England, the FSA, and so on, or will we have the new regime imposed on us by the Commission in Brussels, of all people?
Lord Myners: My Lords, noble Lords know that the initiative for regulation will remain in this country with the Financial Services Authority, the Bank of England and Her Majesty’s Treasury through the tripartite arrangements.
Lord Haskel: My Lords, my noble friend spoke about pay. We have a Low Pay Commission, which he knows a lot about. Does he think that we should have a high pay commission?
Lord Myners: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that question. At this point, I wish that I did have a briefing book in front of me. It has been interesting in the past 10 years to see the significant progress that there has been in reducing inequalities of income. The Gini coefficient of wealth distribution has significantly reduced. The rich, as we know, have got richer in this society, but the poor have become distinctively better off. That is a great testament to the Government’s record in managing the national minimum wage through the Low Pay Commission and through benefit programmes. The super-rich in the City and the incentive effects that allowed them to earn those high returns are of considerable concern to many Members of this House and to the Government.
Lord Davies of Oldham: I am sorry, my Lords, but we must move on.
Energy: Gas and Electricity Prices
3.01 pm
Baroness Wilcox asked Her Majesty’s Government:
Whether they will introduce measures following the report of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development that gas and electricity prices in the United Kingdom have risen by 29.7 per cent in the past year, compared with increases of 14 per cent in France and 12.2 per cent in Germany.
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The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath):My Lords, the Government fully appreciate the impacts of high energy prices, particularly on vulnerable people. Despite recent increases, UK domestic gas and electricity prices in January to June 2008 remained respectively the lowest and fifth lowest in Europe. UK prices rose by particularly sharp percentages this year, because retail prices fell here in 2007, unlike in other EU member states. The regulator Ofgem monitors the markets to ensure that wholesale price decreases pass through to consumers without unjustified delays.
Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer to my Question. It sounded amazingly plausible and I am not quite sure why we are all so worried, except that Consumer Focus, the Government’s own organisation under the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, who has been a Minister in his own Government, has declared how very worried it is about this. Given that we have dithered over gas storage and that one reason why we pay so much for our gas is because we have to buy it from France and Germany, which do not seem to have such high prices as we do, will the Minister kindly comment on the breaking news that Portland Gas has said today that it will not build its gas storage?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, on the general concern expressed by my noble friend Lord Whitty, when consumers, and indeed businesses, see a sharp increase in prices, they are of course concerned about it. The noble Baroness will know about the Ofgem review. Although that review identified a number of problems, particularly with pre-payment meters and the supply of electricity to customers who have not switched, overall it found that the market was still competitive. I cannot comment on the decision about gas storage, but I can say that we remain committed to ensuring that there are sufficient storage facilities in this country.
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan: My Lords, would my noble friend be prepared to suggest to Ofgem that there is a case for a fresh look at the nature of the British energy market? In the past 10 years, we have been largely guided by the original authors of the regulation of energy, who were inspired by the now widely regarded as bankrupt Austrian school of economists, who took the view that we should eschew long-term contracts in favour of the short-term market—a course of action that was warmly applauded by those on the opposition Benches. The French and the Germans, who remained loyal to the long-term contracts, are now enjoying lower rates of increase than we are, and there is a case for us eschewing the right-wing nonsense of these half-baked economists of the past, who were applauded by the Conservatives in recent years, and considering the matter afresh.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I will not comment on schools of economists. But I would say to my noble friend that, clearly, the UK consumer has
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Lord Teverson: My Lords, it is generally recognised that gas storage is a key issue in terms of the fluctuating prices of gas, as well as an energy security issue. In the UK we have some two weeks of gas storage capacity, whereas France and Germany have 100 days or more. What is the current gas storage target in terms of days or weeks and when is that target likely to be met?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, the noble Lord is right to raise the issue of gas storage and, because of the North Sea, we have had our own natural storage for a considerable number of years. My understanding is that our current storage capacity is around 4 per cent of current annual demand, which is 4 billion cubic metres. We are seeing around 1 billion cubic metres under construction and a proposed 14.5 billion by 2020-21.
Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes: My Lords, on the simple point of the prices that consumers have to pay—I join the Minister in welcoming Ofgem—although we have the power to fine considerably when flouting occurs in relation to price increases, that does not directly benefit consumers. They do not get any of that money. They do not get a refund on any overpayments that they may have made. What would the Minister suggest to amend the situation?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, one has to accept that there is inevitably a lag between the time when wholesale gas and electricity are bought and when the price of them goes through to consumers. It is important for that lag time to be as short as possible and for companies to be transparent. The general Ofgem conclusion is that there has been no undue delay in reductions likely to come through. Clearly, we cannot be complacent and we are entitled to ask the companies to be transparent.
Torture (Damages) Bill [HL]
3.07 pm
Read a third time, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
Business
The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Royall of Blaisdon): My Lords, before the House begins the Third Reading of the Education and Skills Bill, it may be helpful for me to say a few words about the Third
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The usual channels have considered the advice of the Public Bill Office and I therefore propose that it may be for the convenience of the House if leave is given to the noble Lord, Lord Elton, to move Amendment No. 3 and to the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, to move Amendment No. 4. That would allow the Minister to respond to those issues on the record in Hansard. I understand that Amendments Nos. 8 and 9, in the names of my noble friends Lady Turner and Lord McIntosh, will not be moved.
Education and Skills Bill
3.10 pm
Clause 8 [Sufficient relevant training or education]:
Lord Layard moved Amendment No. 1:
1: Clause 8, page 4, line 29, after “learning,” insert “including a substantial amount of time spent away from the individual’s work station,”
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment is crucial to the definition of “education and training”, which in turn is crucial to the Bill. It is vital that the concept of education and training requires,
Unless the Government can ensure this, the Bill will be left with a fatal loophole. To plug it, we urge the Government to accept this amendment or to find another way of guaranteeing the same result. I beg to move.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: My Lords, on behalf of Members on these Benches, we strongly support the amendment.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills (Lord Young of Norwood Green): My Lords, I appreciate my noble friend Lord Layard’s dedication in promoting the interests of those young people learning while in work. It is our policy that learning for those in work should be personalised, high quality, accredited and delivered in a way that engages the young person and suits their individual needs and interests. Some young people learn best when they can see the immediate practical relevance and application of what they are learning. I absolutely agree with my noble friend that the learning that young people are undertaking must be of the very highest quality, that it must involve actual, guided learning, and that young people must be learning new things, not simply doing their day-to-day jobs.
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I know that my noble friend previously had concerns that Clause 8 as drafted could allow a “way out” for employers, but the clause states that a young person can be deemed to be participating in enough training if they are participating in a course or courses leading to an accredited qualification that has been assigned enough guided learning hours. This does not mean that employers can simply sign a young person up for a qualification for which they already have the skills and get them accredited without providing any actual guided learning. That would very clearly not meet the terms of the legislation.
I said on Report that we would consider whether, in the specific and limited case where employers are providing and funding the accredited training themselves, there is more we need to do to ensure that the clear requirements set out in the legislation, as I have just described, are actually adhered to in practice. Having considered this further, I can say today that we will indicate in statutory guidance to local authorities that where a young person is registered as participating in employer-funded training, we expect the authority proactively to check that a course involving actual guided learning is being followed. Given that I agree with my noble friend that it is unlikely that a high quality learning programme would not involve time away from the work station, we will also indicate in the guidance that we would expect a substantial amount of the guided learning to be away from the work station. We will ensure that this is also set out in the guidance that we have promised to give to employers, and on which we will consult with employers and their representatives.
I am grateful to my noble friend for continuing to raise these important issues, and I hope that he will be reassured that we are equally committed to ensuring the quality of the learning experience for young people. I hope also that he will agree that the commitments I have made today emphasise this, and that he will withdraw his amendment and support this important Bill.
Lord Layard: My Lords, my noble friend and I are delighted with that reply and extremely grateful to the Minister for the undertaking. It is wonderful news for young people and illustrates, if I may say so, two of the strengths of this Government: their willingness to listen and their commitment to offering the best possible chance to every young person in the country. I thought that, without a guarantee, one could not call this a landmark Bill. With it, however, one certainly can. On that basis, I am happy to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
3.15 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness Morgan of Drefelin) moved Amendment No. 2:
2: After Clause 59, insert the following new Clause—
“Review of initial operation of Chapter
(1) The Secretary of State must appoint a person to conduct a review of the initial operation of this Chapter.
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(2) The person appointed must make a report to the Secretary of State on the review within a reasonable period after the school leaving date for 2016.
(3) The Secretary of State must lay a copy of the report before Parliament.
(4) The Secretary of State may pay to the person appointed such remuneration and expenses as the Secretary of State may determine.”
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, this amendment is a commitment to undertake a review of the enforcement process for young people who do not comply with the duty to participate so that we can be clear that the system is effective in reinforcing compulsion, and so that we may learn any lessons to improve the system. I shall also take the opportunity to reassure noble Lords about the design of the enforcement process and to reiterate some of our commitments to ensure that young people do not enter the process if they have unmet needs and that they receive all necessary support to help them participate. We are absolutely clear that the voices of young people should be heard throughout the process and that they should be offered appropriate support and a real learning option before any enforcement action can be started.
If young people are failing to participate, a local authority must engage with them, find them an option which suits them and help them to take up learning again. This will be monitored by an independent panel—independent because it will be chaired by someone outside the local authority. The panel will scrutinise the local authority’s actions and can overturn an attendance notice if it thinks that the local authority has not offered enough support. We have given a commitment that young people will be able to make representations to these panels at every stage and bring someone with them or even send someone in their place if they are not able to attend.
I reiterate that, even after enforcement action has been formally started, there will be a process of administrative sanctions, support and dialogue with a young person before anyone can reach the youth court. If a young person re-engages in learning or has a reasonable excuse at any stage, all enforcement action will cease.
I will set out the process again for clarity. If a young person has got to the stage of being issued an attendance notice, they will have to fail to fulfil that without a reasonable excuse before being given a fixed penalty notice. If the young person pays the fixed penalty notice, they will not proceed to prosecution in the youth court. If they do not, only then could the local authority even consider bringing a case to a youth court. The young person can appeal to the independent panel at any stage and, whether they appeal or not, the local authority would need the panel’s explicit agreement to take the case to a youth court. No young person will be able to reach this final stage without refusing to participate, in full knowledge of the consequences and rejecting all the support offered at every stage. It is our firm belief that very few young people will ever reach the final stage of the enforcement process.
The purpose of the review to which we are committing in the amendment is to confirm that this is the case and to make sure that the support and enforcement system achieves what we want it to, which is making
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The amendment makes clear that we will also review the whole enforcement system after the legislation comes into effect, and the amendment places this commitment on the face of the Bill. We have said that the review will be complete by 2016, which will allow it to consider the experiences of the first cohort of young people to be required to stay until they are 18. The review will be chaired by an independent person to ensure that it is robust. I hope that noble Lords who have raised concerns about the enforcement system will welcome the amendment, which provides for a full review of its operation soon after commencement. I beg to move.
Baroness Morris of Bolton: My Lords, while we share the Government’s ambition to see each and every 17 and 18-year old receive the best education or training to help them realise their full potential, our main concern throughout the Bill has been the issue of compulsion and the attendant sanctions this brings. Our desire in all this was to ensure that no young person received a criminal record simply because they were disaffected with the system, especially at such a critical age and stage of their life, when a criminal record could be disastrous.
We had hoped that this could be dealt with by the civil, rather than the criminal, courts, but after hours of discussion that proved unworkable. We then thought we had cracked the problem by writing into the Bill that the sanctions would not constitute a criminal act for the purpose of the Bill and so would not lead to a criminal record, but that would have introduced changes to the law that would have resulted in much wider implications than this Bill alone, and it would have been very late in the Bill to introduce such changes, not to say somewhat above my pay grade—or non-pay grade, as it is in your Lordships’ House. The Government constantly reassure us that the checks and balances put in place by the Bill will make criminalisation extremely rare. We hope that it will not happen at all. However, we welcome the independent review offered by the Government.
We thank the Minister, the right honourable Jim Knight MP, the Bill team for its help throughout the Bill but particularly on this issue, and the officials at the Ministry of Justice for their time and patience in reaching this conclusion. I also thank noble Lords across the House who have been staunch supporters of our attempt to avoid criminalising young people. I sincerely hope that all will be done to help young people to take up learning and training before any damaging sanctions are imposed.
Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, I thank the Minister for agreeing to our proposal at a meeting last week to put a review of the Bill’s enforcement elements into
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