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17 Nov 2008 : Column 970
Ramsbotham, L.
Reay, L.
Rogan, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Waddington, L.
Walpole, L.
Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.
5.53 pm
Amendment No. 77: Page 6, line 32, at end insert-
“(i) the emissions of greenhouse gases from international aviation or international shipping that the Secretary of State expects to arise during the budget period.”
7B: Page 6, line 32, at end insert-
“(i) the estimated amount of reportable emissions from international aviation and international shipping for the budgetary period or periods in question.”
7C: Page 6, line 32, at end insert-
“( ) In subsection (2)(i) “the estimated amount of reportable emissions from international aviation and international shipping”, in relation to a budgetary period, means the aggregate of the amounts relating to emissions of targeted greenhouse gases from international aviation and international shipping that the Secretary or State or (as the case may be) the Committee estimates the United Kingdom will be required to report for that period in accordance with international carbon reporting practice.
( ) Such amounts may be estimated using such reasonable method or methods as the Secretary of State or (as the case may be) the Committee considers appropriate.
( ) The duty in subsection (2)(i) applies if and to the extent that regulations under section 30 do not provide for emissions of targeted greenhouse gases from international aviation and international shipping in the budgetary period or periods in question to be treated as emissions from sources in the United Kingdom for the purposes of this Part.
( ) Section 30(1) (emissions from international aviation and international shipping not to count as emissions from UK sources for the purposes of this Part, except as provided by regulations) does not prevent the Secretary of State or the Committee from taking into account the matter referred to in subsection (2)(i) for the purposes of this section.”
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do disagree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 7, substituting the words on the Marshalled List in lieu, and that the House do agree with Amendments Nos. 12, 18, 25, 28, 31 and 74.
These amendments deal with emissions from international aviation and international shipping, perhaps the most technically complex issue we have had to discuss during the passage of the Bill. Throughout the discussions, the Government’s position has been that it is vital to put in place strong mechanisms for dealing with emissions from international aviation and shipping, but that finding the right way of deciding which of those emissions should be allocated as being the UK’s responsibility is not possible at the moment. The set of amendments on which I seek your Lordships’ agreement reflects that position. The amendments would take us as near as is currently possible to including these emissions in the Bill’s targets and budgets, and would also ensure maximum transparency about how we deal with them in the meantime.
Many contributors have provided valuable views and support in taking forward our thinking on this difficult matter. In particular, the Joint Committee
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In its interim advice the committee advised that international aviation and shipping emissions should be included in the UK’s efforts to reduce overall emissions by at least 80 per cent by 2050, but that they should not be included in the Bill’s targets at this time because of the lack of an appropriate methodology. The committee also recommended that emissions from these sectors should be reflected in its annual reports of progress and should be taken into account in the setting of budgets. This is a comprehensive set of recommendations, and I believe that all of them are provided for in the amendments that I bring before the House tonight, which would do three main things.
First, Amendments Nos. 12 and 18 would require that emissions from international aviation and shipping must be included in the Bill by 31 December 2012, or that the Government must lay a report before Parliament explaining why that is not the case. That approach is closely aligned with the view previously agreed by this House: the differences are in how we define the emissions and in providing an earlier deadline for inclusion or explanation that aligns with the budget-setting process.
On defining these emissions, the House recognised that one possible method would be by reference to the transport of goods and passengers. However, there are other potential options for definition, and we do not want inadvertently to rule them out. This is why we are seeking to revert back to the broader language of “international aviation and shipping emissions”, which is established terminology within the UN and EU.
Secondly, Amendment No. 25 would require that the Committee on Climate Change must, when providing its advice on carbon budgets, give its view on the consequences of including emissions from international aviation and shipping within the targets and budgets. Amendments Nos. 28, 31 and 74 are consequential to Amendment No. 25.
Thirdly, Amendment No. 7 reflects the view, as put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Turner, in his letter to the Secretary of State, that although the right methodology does not yet exist for including these emissions in the carbon budgets, decisions made by the committee or the Government in relation to the budgets must take into account projected emissions from international aviation and shipping.
At Commons Report stage, the Government accepted an amendment which reflected the committee’s view, but on the basis that we would need to discuss the specific drafting with parliamentary counsel. Amendments Nos. 7B and C provide the new, revised version. These amendments would require both the Government and the committee to have regard to projected emissions from international aviation and international shipping in setting, and advising on, carbon budgets, respectively. They also provide that these projections may be estimated using such reasonable methods as the Secretary of State or the committee considers appropriate. I beg to move.
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Moved, That this House do disagree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 7 but do propose Amendments Nos. 7B and 7C in lieu.—(Lord Hunt of Kings Heath.)
Lord Teverson moved Amendments Nos. 7D to 7F, as amendments to Amendments Nos. 7B and 7C in lieu:
7D:(to Amendment No. 7B in lieu) Line 2, leave out “reportable emissions from international aviation and international shipping” and insert “emissions of targeted greenhouse gases from international aviation and shipping attributable to sources in the United Kingdom”
7E:(to Amendment No. 7C in lieu)Line 2, leave out “reportable emissions from international aviation and international shipping” and insert “emissions of targeted greenhouse gases from international aviation and shipping attributable to sources in the United Kingdom”
7F:(to Amendment No. 7C in lieu)Line 7, leave out “will be required to report for that period in accordance with international carbon reporting practice”
The noble Lord said: My Lords, that procedure is probably longer than my speech. I do not know whether you can table probing amendments at this late stage of the Bill, but I am sure that the Minister will tolerate it. What concerns me, particularly in the case of international shipping, is that a number of studies over the past two years have made clear that the current measurement of emissions, both globally and relating to the UK in particular, underestimate the carbon emissions of the sector. I am not being negative about the shipping sector, because it is a very efficient form of transport in terms of carbon consumption. Indeed, if we could increase shipping at the expense of other forms of transport, we would strongly welcome that. What I seek do in these amendments, rather than leaving the term “reportable” that is vague and suggests adherence to the existing way of calculating these emissions, is to make sure that they are the emissions properly attributable to the United Kingdom. That is clearly what everybody means, but at the moment they are not the current reportable emissions. I would welcome assurance from the Minister on this matter. I beg to move.
6 pm
Lord Taylor of Holbeach moved Amendment No. 7G, as an amendment to Amendment No. 7C in lieu:
7G: Line 11, at end insert “and the Secretary of State shall publish details of the methodology used”
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this group is of a complexity that I have not experienced before. Amendment No. 7G provides for the publication of methodology. As my colleagues in another place made clear on Report, Conservatives welcome the inclusion of aviation and shipping emissions in carbon budgets. I speak in support of the government amendments to Commons Amendment No. 7.
In the debate in another place, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Energy and Climate Change indicated that tidying-up amendments would be necessary. As in your Lordships’ House, there was a long and detailed debate in the other place on the issue of emissions from aviation and shipping, and it is not necessary to repeat that debate here. We on these Benches welcome the Government’s amendments, but still consider them incomplete because of the absence
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I understand the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, to government Amendment No. 7, and his reasons for proposing them. I hope that we all agree on the necessity for more fully drafted amendments in lieu, as the Government have put forward this evening. However, it is important to note an area of weakness that is addressed by the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. The government amendment requires “expected reportable emissions” to be taken into account, rather than “expected emissions”. This might sound like pedantry, but I have been made aware that the difference is significant. It is widely accepted that, particularly in the case of shipping emissions, there are weaknesses in the current reporting methodology that lead to the UK figures being significantly underestimated. We are all aware, thanks in part to the many debates in both Houses, that the Government are not in a position to legislate for a specific methodology to be used for the counting of emissions from international aviation and shipping. However, it is not sensible to limit the legislation to a method that is widely accepted to be flawed. We should make the remit flexible enough to include a better projection methodology, if or when one is developed in the future. I thank Friends of the Earth for bringing this issue to my attention and call on the Minister to give the assurances that I have sought from the Government. I beg to move.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords for their amendments. They provide an opportunity for the Government to respond to a number of points that are entirely reasonable given the changes that were made in the other place.
The issue of emissions from international aviation and shipping is very important. However, the fact that there is as yet no agreement on how to allocate those emissions means that we have to deal with this matter in a particularly sensitive way. That is the intent behind the government amendments. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, that calculating emissions that are properly attributable to the UK is a very important aim. The government amendments would require the committee and the Government to take account of the aggregate of the amounts of emissions of targeted greenhouse gases from international aviation and international shipping that the UK will be required to report for that period, in accordance with international carbon reporting practice.
The problem that we have with the noble Lord’s amendment is the link to the UK. Currently there is no agreement on what proportion of these emissions
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It is difficult to envisage a situation in which the UK would not have to report on emissions from international aviation and shipping to the UN or some other international organisation. In the unlikely event that the UK duty to report to the UN on those emissions was discontinued, the Bill has a mechanism to deal with this. We can specify an alternative approach by making an order under Clause 86, linking the report to any different reporting protocol at European or international level.
The second paragraph in government Amendment No. 7C would provide that projections might be carried out using,
That also gives us flexibility. Clause 11(3) already states that:
“Nothing in this section is to be read as restricting the matters that the Secretary of State or the Committee may take into account”.
For instance, the committee might choose to take a different approach, or international reporting requirements may change. However, that would not preclude consideration of international aviation and shipping emissions in whatever way was considered appropriate.
I accept that the question of the methodology is very important. In his amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, invites the Government to publish the methodology. I hope that I can reassure him on this point. The UK Government already publish projections of future CO2 emissions for international flights from UK airports, and we intend to continue to do so. The previous reports were published in 2004 and 2007, and it is intended that further forecasts will be published on a regular basis.
In the other place, the Government made a commitment that we will publish at least one forecast of international aviation emissions for each budgetary period sufficient to inform decisions on setting carbon budgets, so the basis of our projections will be perfectly clear. As I have already indicated, the Committee on Climate Change will provide advice in relation to each carbon budget, and that advice is required to take into account all the factors listed in Clause 11 including, if Amendments Nos. 7B and 7C are agreed to, emissions from international aviation and shipping. The committee
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In setting out proposals and policies for meeting the carbon budget, the Government must explain how those proposals and policies affect different sectors of the economy. In conclusion, the Government have sought to ensure that this is a robust process, within the current uncertainties about developing a methodology, but ensuring that their approach is as transparent as possible. As I have already indicated, if the Government took a different decision to that recommended by the committee, they would have to publish the committee’s advice and they would have to explain why they would take a different decision.
Lord Teverson: My Lords, I thank the Minister for going through that in some detail, and I recognise his full sincerity in what he said. I am not going to press my amendment, but—I agree that the committee will do this—it is extremely important that the Committee on Climate Change will make sure that the reality of emissions from the sectors are fully taken into account, rather than just reportable numbers based on bunkering, or on other basic measures that are somewhat unsatisfactory at the moment. I beg leave to withdraw the amendments.
Amendments Nos. 7D to 7F, as amendments to Amendments Nos. 7B and 7C in lieu, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Amendment No. 7G, as an amendment to Amendment No. 7C in lieu, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Amendment No. 8Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 8.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
Amendment No. 9Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 9. In speaking to this group, I shall also address Amendments Nos. 11, 17, 17A to 17C, 49 and 50.
There has been substantial discussion during the passage of the Bill about the importance of driving emissions reductions in the UK. The Government agree with this principle, and we have designed the Bill to provide a clear framework for action. Under the Kyoto protocol, developed countries have each been given a maximum allowance, or target, for greenhouse gas emissions over the period 2008-12.
As noble Lords know, the UK is one of the few countries that is on course to substantially beat its target, but we are keen to make reductions beyond
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Both Kyoto and the EU ETS allow countries and participating companies, respectively, to buy credits from projects to reduce emissions in developing countries that are not subject to a cap. The use of these credits is itself limited in both cases. The idea is that emissions reductions can be made where it is most economically efficient to do so, but that reductions are still very much driven in participating countries too. By supporting projects in developing countries, we are also helping those countries, so that their growing economies are low-carbon from the start. Project credits are subject to close scrutiny by a UN board to provide maximum certainty that they represent genuine emissions reductions.
Our aim is that the Bill should drive emissions reductions in a way that is consistent with our participation in both Kyoto and the EU ETS. The Bill, with amendments made in the Commons, contains specific provisions that enshrine in law our intention to reduce domestic emissions and provide transparency about what actually happens.
6.15 pm
Clause 34 requires the Committee on Climate Change to advise on the extent to which the carbon budget should be met by action in the UK and by the use of overseas credits. In addition, having set carbon budgets, the Government must develop and publish proposals and policies for meeting them. Amendment No. 9 proposes adding further transparency. It would require that the Government’s report on proposals and policies for meeting budgets, under Clause 14, must set out the implications of those policies for the relative balance between action to reduce UK emissions and the use of overseas credits.
In addition, Amendment No. 11 would introduce a new clause requiring that, in considering how to meet the long-term target and the carbon budgets, the Secretary of State must have regard to the need for UK domestic action on climate change. That is a clear legal requirement and statement of intent, which for the first time puts into domestic law the need for action here in the UK to reduce emissions.
Clause 25 would set in the Bill a minimum level of domestic effort in meeting budgets; in other words, a flat maximum for the use of carbon credits. Noble Lords will be aware that the Government do not support this approach. That is why we have proposed Amendment No. 17, which would delete Clause 25. Our view is that setting a binding limit in the Bill would send the wrong signal to our international partners about our support for a truly global carbon market. This is particularly important given the ongoing negotiations on a comprehensive, global, long-term framework for action, which we hope to agree at Copenhagen in December next year.
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The Stern review showed that international emissions trading under binding caps plays a vital role in the global response to climate change. The noble Lord, Lord Stern, reaffirmed this during debates on the Bill earlier this year:
“Carbon trading has a very powerful role not only through cost but in that much broader and deeper context of putting a global deal together”.—[Official Report, 11/3/08; col. 1416.]
We consider that a more appropriate method for tackling this key issue would be the requirement to set a flexible, less rigid limit on the use of credits. Amendments Nos. 17A, 17B and 17C have been proposed to achieve this.
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