Examination of Witnesses (Questions 460
- 479)
460. Can I then turn very briefly to the specifics
of the Newham Petition and the two stations they seek to make
step free.
461. BARNONESS FOOKES: What precisely
is meant by "passive provision" which I see in these
tables?
462. MS LIEVEN: If we take the example
of the Bakerloo interchange at Paddington, the difficulty is that
there is a very narrow space between the Bakerloo Line platforms
at Paddington and there is—and I cannot remember whether
it is a signals room or an electrics room—a critical room
in that space for London Underground operations, so what we are
doing is making step-free access to the point above the platform
where the lift would have to come down. Because we are not going
to re-engineer the whole of that bit of the Bakerloo Line under
the Crossrail scheme, you would still have to go down steps, but
at the point where the Bakerloo Line is upgraded under London
Underground's own proposals, that signals room can be moved and
a lift can be put in. So we have taken it up to the point where
London Underground under its own proposals can do the next stage
and actually put the lift in, but for us to do that would involve
major works to the Bakerloo Line, which is completely outside
the remit of Crossrail, and Mr Berryman can give you much more
detail on the precise problems. That is what we mean by passive
provision.
463. BARNONESS FOOKES: You mean future
provision?
464. MS LIEVEN: Future provision.
465. BARNONESS FOOKES: I just wonder
why you use the word "passive".
466. MS LIEVEN: It is the normal jargon
in this situation (which is probably no excuse!) which allows
the next person who comes along to fit the last piece of the jigsaw.
So if, for instance, we were putting steps in further back along
the passage, then we would have stopped step-free access in the
future. We are not doing that; we are allowing it up to this critical
point and that is what we call passive provision so then somebody
else can come along and do the last bit. That issue I think arises
at two or three locations but the Bakerloo Line at Paddington
is the one I am most familiar with.
467. Turning on then to Newham's position, we
did say before that we would just very briefly explain where petitioners
had been in the House of Commons, as it were. Newham did appear
in the House of Commons but only to explain that they had generally
reached agreement on issues. Their major concern in the House
of Commons was that trains should stop at Maryland at all because
the original proposal was, because of the low usage of Maryland
and its proximity to Stratford, Crossrail trains would not stop
at all. We agreed with Newham before they appeared in the House
of Commons that we would approach HM Railway Inspectorate to allow
trains to stop at Maryland without all the doors opening. Because
the platforms at Maryland are too short for all the Crossrail
carriage doors to open, there is going to be what is called "selective"
door opening so one set of carriage doors will not open because
the platforms are too short. That was Newham's principal issue
in the Commons and we reached agreement on that and they did not
appear. They did put down a marker that they were concerned about
accessibility at Maryland and Manor Park, and the issues of accessibility
were dealt with generically in the House of Commons, and Dr Maynard
made a generic presentation. Newham did not come back at that
generic stage to press the point on Maryland or Manor Park, so
although it was raised in general they did not come back in front
of the Commons and seek to argue the point.
468. If I could then turn to the facts. If we
could put up the north-east route map please.[4]
The Committee will remember from the opening the north-east section
going up to Shenfield. The first station is Stratford which is
a major interchange, the Committee will be familiar with it, it
comes at the end of the termini of the Jubilee Line and is a relatively
new station ticket hall. Maryland is the next blob on here which
I am indicating and it is about 600 metres from Stratford Station.
Then we come to Forest Gate and then the next one is Manor Park
and east of Manor Park is Ilford. Stratford, Forest Gate and Ilford
are all going to be fully accessible with step-free access down
to the platforms.
469. If I can then put up 001, this is our plan
of step-free stations.[5]
The full green blobs are fully accessible. There are on the western
limb a few half green blobs which show accessible in one direction
only, which we fully accept is not a perfect solution but does
not really arise on this petition, and then the very few red blobs
are the ones that are not going to be made accessible for people
with reduced mobility, so one can see those there.
470. Then if we just put up 003 please, just
to show the Committee and give some context.[6]
That is Maryland Station (Indicating) and that is a photo from
the side of Maryland Station. Then if we can put up Manor Park
please.[7]
There we are—that is a photo of Manor Park.
471. And to show the Committee where these stations
lie in real terms rather than railway terms, if we can go back
to 004, this is Maryland Station on the railway and there is a
bus route that comes past it. Stratford Station, as I say, is
about 600 metres to the west and this is the shopping centre of
Stratford (Indicating) with pedestrian accessibility through it.[8]
472. Just to put it in context up here are the
Olympic lands, the Stratford railway lands which are at the moment
being redeveloped for the Olympics. One can see to the east, Forest
Gate Station. There are various other points on these maps but
I will go through those with Mr Berryman.
473. LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD: Just before
you move on, I presume that the buses that run are wheelchair
accessible?
474. MS LIEVEN: They are all wheelchair
accessible, yes, they are all low-floor buses.
475. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: I also
have a question. Could you go back to the map please with the
limited access where you have only got it one way?
476. MS LIEVEN: Yes, 001.[9]
477. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: In that
particular case is it feasible for somebody who is seriously handicapped
to have the disability problem that they cannot use the platform
going the right way, can they in that case go easily to another
station with easy access to the next platform back the other way
if they wanted to and get to the point they have got to platform
on the right way with the right access by going back to another
station?
478. MS LIEVEN: Yes, there are really
two alternatives I would suggest in those situations over on the
western limb. Either somebody could get on the platform going
in the wrong direction, go back to the next accessible station,
which in this case would be Slough, go from Langley back to Slough,
and then change back on to the fully accessible service going
the other way. The more likely scenario, I suspect, and Dr Maynard
may want to comment on this, is that a number of people who are
seriously disabled, for example, in wheelchairs, will not be going
to the station, as I put it colloquially, under their own steam
in any event. For example, they will be getting a Dial-a-Ride
or a lift or a taxi or a bus. Now, in reality, probably most people
in that situation, even if they live close to Langley, will actually
just get the bus or the Dial-a-Ride to Slough, so, rather than
doing a rather complicated journey of going to Langley, going
in the wrong direction and then coming back, they will probably
just arrange their affairs so that they go straight to Slough.
Of course there may be a small number of people who are so close
to Langley that that is not their most convenient thing to do,
but, in reality, it is relatively unlikely that people would do
that journey.
479. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: There
are two spin-off questions that come from that, if I may. First,
picking up from Baroness Fookes' question, the limited access
there does not imply that this is a passive solution in the short
term, but it will have a full solution in the longer term, so
these are as they will stay?
4 Crossrail Ref: P1, Crossrail Line 1-Northeastern
Route (LINEWD-OPN1-016) Back
5
Crossrail Ref: P8, Crossrail Line 1-Diagram 2-step-free access
to Crossrail stopping platforms (NEWMLB-53_04-001) Back
6
Crossrail Ref: P8, Transport for London-Buses from Manor Park
(NEWMLB-53_04-003) Back
7
Crossrail Ref: P8, Maryland Station-View of station entrance
(NEWMLB-53_04-006) Back
8
Crossrail Ref: P8, Maryland Station-Local bus services providing
direct links to Stratford Station (NEWMLB-53_04-004) Back
9
Crossrail Ref: P8, Crossrail Line 1-Diagram 2-step-free access
to Crossrail stopping platforms (NEWMLB-53_04-001) Back
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