Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1040
1040. MS LIEVEN: If there is a little
moving around at some stage, that is why and we will deal with
it comprehensively once we have got the note.
BERRYMAN, sworn Examined
by MS LIEVEN
1041. MS LIEVEN: Mr Berryman, although
you have met some members of the Committee, this is the first
time you have given evidence, so I think it is appropriate to
introduce you to the Committee. Can you start by explaining what
your position with Crossrail is, please?
(Mr Berryman) I am
the Managing Director of CLRL which is the joint-venture company
which has been set up between Transport for London and initially
the SRA, but subsequently the Department for Transport, to bring
forward the work on the Crossrail project. I have particular responsibility
for dealing with matters relating to the Bill.
1042. Now, in terms of your experience, I think
you have been a civil engineer for something like 40 years. Is
(Mr Berryman) That is correct, yes.
1043. And you have mainly worked in the planning,
design, construction and financing of transport infrastructure?
(Mr Berryman) That is correct.
1044. You are a Fellow of the Institution of
Civil Engineers and you are a member of their council. Is that
(Mr Berryman) That is also correct.
1045. You are also a Member of the Institution
of Structural Engineers?
(Mr Berryman) Correct.
1046. I think that you were previously a Director
of the Strategic Rail Authority. Is that right?
(Mr Berryman) That is correct.
1047. In terms of specific experience on roughly
comparable projects in the UK, can you just explain what your
role was on the Beckton extension of the Docklands Light Railway?
(Mr Berryman) Well, it would be nice to think that the Beckton
extension was comparable to this, but certainly it is an important
railway scheme. I was the Project Manager responsible for all
aspects of the design and construction of that.
1048. I think the final thing that is relevant
for the Committee to know: when did you first become involved
in the Crossrail project?
(Mr Berryman) In 2000.
1049. What were you doing?
(Mr Berryman) I initially did some work with the SRA on a
thing called the `London East-West Study' to look at ways of dealing
with some of the congestion on the existing Underground system
1050. Can we move on then to your evidence on
this particular Petition and perhaps we can put up Exhibit 1 to
Can you just talk us through which stations in Newham will, and
will not, be step-free? The way Newham have put the case is that
they are being particularly hard-done-by because they have got
two non-accessible stations. Do you just want to explain the background
(Mr Berryman) Yes, the stations which will be
accessible in Newham will be Stratford, Forest Gate and Custom
House. I think this was explained yesterday in evidence by the
Petitioner. Maryland and Manor Park will not have step-free access.
The other station on the east side of London which will not have
step-free access is Seven Kings which is in the next borough.
The reason for that is because these stations are particularly
close together by comparison with the other stations on the Crossrail
network and they are also very difficult to actually modify. In
fact all of the stations down here are in deep cuttings with brick
walls at the side, difficult to widen. This railway is due to
Braithwaite, the engineer, in the 1840s who was famous for being
very economical when he constructed the railway and the railway
is built to a very tight boundary. Interestingly, on the other
side of London it was built by Brunel who was famous for being
bad for the shareholders because he always made everything so
elaborate, and of course we have more room there. The main reason
is the closeness together and the difficulty of construction of
the works that will be required.
1051. Now, in general terms, before we come
to the specifics of the two stations, do you just want to take
us through what factors are taken into account by the project
in deciding whether to provide step-free access or not?
(Mr Berryman) I think the first thing that we look at is
the number of passengers and, in assessing the number of passengers,
we take into account the surrounding population in what appears
to be the natural catchment of the station, the levels of car
ownership, the highway congestion in the area, job location and
crucially the public transport network which feeds into the station
and surrounds the station, and we have got very sophisticated
models which actually identify what the traffic is likely to be
as a result of those factors.
1052. Just while we are looking at this and
picking up on something you have just said, one of the issues
that Newham raised yesterday was that there are particularly high
levels of depravation in Newham and that has not been taken account
of. You said that one of the things you did take account of was
levels of car ownership. Can you just explain what, if anything,
that tells us about depravation?
(Mr Berryman) Well, car ownership tends to be lower in areas
where depravation is higher. That is not a universal rule, but
it is a very good approximation in these parts of London. It is
either very low incomes or very high incomes in the areas where
car ownership is lower. For example, when I am talking about high
incomes, I am thinking of places like Mayfair where the level
of car users is lower than in some of the outer parts of London,
so there is not a direct correlation, but it is a good surrogate
for the levels of depravation, particularly in the outer parts
1053. CHAIRMAN: On that slide, we would
not be too worried about interchange movements at Maryland or
Manor Park, would we?
(Mr Berryman) No, there would not be any significant interchange
movements there. I ought just to mention Chadwell Heath, by the
way, which looks a bit odd here, it is a bit of an outlier on
the thing, but actually Chadwell Heath is being provided with
step-free access by others as part of the Access for All programme,
so, although it is not included in our works, it is being done
1054. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: On
the last point, could you just say a little bit more about that,
that there are other parties coming in there and providing assistance?
(Mr Berryman) There is a programme being operated by Network
Rail called `Access for All' which is working its way through
the national network and it is using a similar set of criteria
to those which we use, the total number of passengers at a station
compared with the difficulty of doing it. At some stations it
is very, very difficult indeed to get lifts in, and we are really
talking about lifts here, it is very, very difficult to get lifts
in, so what they try to do is to get the ratio between the number
of passengers as a surrogate for the potential beneficiaries and
the cost of putting the lifts in and then they have ranked all
the stations, as far as I know, in the UK on that basis and they
are working their way down the list putting lifts in.
1055. So they thought this qualified, but you
(Mr Berryman) No, we always thought it qualified, but we
knew that somebody else was going to do it.
1056. MS LIEVEN: The Access for All programme,
I think, was referred to yesterday. It is funded by the Department
for Transport and it is the £365 million that Dr Maynard
referred to yesterday, is it not?
(Mr Berryman) I think one of these down here (indicating)
is going to be done by the Olympics because it gives access to
the Olympic rowing venue.
1057. Yes, I think it is Taplow, is it not?
(Mr Berryman) I think it is Taplow, yes, which would not
fit our criteria because the usage is so low, but specifically
for the Paralympic Games it will be done by the Olympic Authority.
1058. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: We have
not heard, I think, at any point so far, and I am a little surprised
not to have heard, whether there is any implication of a station
having a finite capacity to handle any number of impaired people
at any one time, so, if you start to try to achieve a concentration,
but are using an adjacent station to compensate for the lack of
stairs with the excess of stairs in one, do you reach a saturation
point where you have rendered the other station unusable?
(Mr Berryman) No, not at the figures that we are talking
1059. Can you give us some indication of what
would represent saturation for the number of handicapped people
using a station at any one time because this would surely be a
factor in the rush hour?
(Mr Berryman) Well, it would be a factor in the rush hour,
but it is more a problem of capacity on the trains than on the
platforms because on each train there would be two or three, probably
two, wheelchair spaces normally and that is likely to be much
more of a limiting factor.
7 Crossrail Ref: P8, Crossrail Line 1-Diagram 2-step-free
access to Crossrail stopping platforms (NEWMLB-53_04-001) Back