Examination of Witnesses (Questions 3400
- 3419)
3400. MR WHEELER: Thank you, yes.
3401. MR MOULD: My Lord, the other matter,
if I may, arises out of questions this morning about how the statutory
listed building controls are going to be dealt with under the
terms of the Bill. I thought the Committee might value an explanation
of that, if this is a convenient moment.
3402. The position is this: there are two broad
categories of case in relation to listed buildings.
3403. CHAIRMAN: Is this all Schedule
7?
3404. MR MOULD: It is Schedule 9, in
actual fact. I said 7 this morning; forgive me, I had the wrong
number. Schedule 9 begins, I think, on page 167 of the Bill. My
Lord, there are two broad categories of buildings that this schedule
is concerned with. The first category is listed buildings where
it is necessary to undertake works as part of a construction process,
which would ordinarily attract a requirement for listed building
consent. What this schedule does is to list those individual buildings
and premises which are on the statutory list to which that requirement
applies. It then dis-applies the ordinary controls under the Town
& Country Planning Act and the Listed Buildings Act, and replaces
them with a bespoke procedure which you will find set out and
explained in Information Paper B1 in your bible, and in particular
paragraphs 5.1 through to 5.7 of that paper.
3405. Effectively, provision is made for heritage
agreements to be entered into between the Promoter, or the nominated
undertaker, English Heritage and the local planning authority
who are responsible for the building in question—clearly,
in consultation with the building owner and others who may have
an interest, such as, for example, one of the interested societies,
such as The Georgian Group or bodies of that kind, who might be
consulted. That is the first category.
3406. MR MOULD: The second category is
the one which is directly relevant to the issues raised by Mr
Wheeler and that is buildings where it is not proposed to undertake
any works to those buildings for the purposes of constructing
the railway but where it may be necessary to undertake protective,
preventive or remedial works to the building in order to cope
with the effects of ground movement. It is that category of buildings
that Mr Wheeler was concerned about this morning. Paragraph 2
of Schedule 9 makes provision and there is a list of buildings
of that kind which you will find, I think, from pages 173 and
following. What I am going to do is to ask that we show you on
the overhead projector the list of buildings within the Spitalfields
area to which that provision applies and you will see that it
begins about halfway down page 185 of the Bill.[37]
The first building that has been referred to today is 84 Commercial
Street which, I think I am right in saying, is the Ten Bells pub
and then we have you will see 1 to 3 Fournier Street and the list
goes on. I have glanced through it myself and over the page ---
In fact, I think that the vast majority, if not every one, of
the buildings that Mr Wheeler has referred to is identified within
that list. The position is this: those buildings are identified
specifically as buildings where it may be necessary to carry out
some preventive or remedial work, or rather provision is made
within the Bill for that to happen, if necessary, and then under
the bespoke control regime, which is applied in place of the ordinary
controls, heritage agreements will be entered into as required
in relation to each of those buildings with English Heritage and
with the local planning authority to ensure that in so far as
may be required those works are dealt with in a way that is properly
sensitive to the particular interests of special architectural
and historic importance that caused those buildings to be shown
on the statutory list in the first place. My Lord, that is set
out in particular at paragraph 5.5 in the Information Paper B1
to which I have drawn your Lordships' attention to a moment ago.
I hope that clarifies the arrangements that have been made within
the Bill and outside it in relation to that particular aspect
of the scheme.
3407. CHAIRMAN: I see Schedule 9 paragraph
4 deals with a building included in conservation areas which is
not a listed building. Do you know is there a regime for that?
3408. MR MOULD: Yes, that is right. Then
the schedule goes on in page 190 to make provisions regarding
ancient monuments as well and you saw a letter earlier on from
the Ancient Monuments Society, I think, so there is provision
in relation to that. I do not propose, unless you would find it
helpful, to go into any more details as to the nuts and bolts
of this now but I thought I ought to draw that to the Committee's
attention.
3409. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, that is very
helpful.
3410. LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN: I
wanted to ask, are these undertakings in addition to the register
that we have?
3411. MR MOULD: No. This is—
3412. LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN: I
was looking for one of them and I could not find it in here so
I did not know whether these were additional ones?
3413. MR MOULD: These are extracted from
that I think, but I very much take my Lord Chairman's point from
earlier that I cannot say for sure, but it may be there are one
or two undertakings within this extract that are sufficiently
recent but have not yet found their way into the comprehensive
document.
3414. CHAIRMAN: They will in the end
but for the meantime we ought to know about them.
3415. MR MOULD: Please do not take it
that is necessarily the case but that may be the reason why. What
I can say is that the undertakings that are on this A3 sheet are
all undertakings that the Promoter has given to Tower Hamlets
or, indeed, in a number of cases to Spitalfields' residents as
well.
3416. LORD JONES OF CHELTENHAM: I think
Mr Mould said that almost all, or probably all, of the properties
mentioned are on that list we just saw?
3417. MR MOULD: Yes.
3418. LORD JONES OF CHELTENHAM: Is Mr
Adams' property on that list which is 5 Princelet Street?
3419. MR MOULD: Let me just check. Yes,
it is 3 and 5 Princelet Street. It is the penultimate property
on page 185 of the Bill. If there is nothing else, I will give
way to Mr Wheeler.
37 Crossrail Bill [HL Bill 14 (2007-08)], Schedule
9- Heritage: disapplication and modification of controls (SCN-20080311-011) Back
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