Examination of Witnesses (Questions 3660
- 3679)
3660. I have to be honest, the Crossrail representative
at the meeting in February did say that they had nothing in principle
against the Panel engaging experts as we felt we needed them but
felt that they could not meet the fees because that would be public
funds, although they could possibly agree if we were able to negotiate
a lower fee, but we do not know what budget or anything like that.
We came away from that meeting feeling very, very dissatisfied
and very unhappy with the way we felt we were being treated. When
we wrote to Crossrail in November last year we sent with it a
suggested draft of the remit that we would like to adopt as part
of the setting up of the Panel and their response, which arrived
on Monday morning by email, and provided us with a list of various
things that they thought we could do, one of which was to list
out the 27 experts that are engaged with Crossrail to advise them
about various aspects of the project, but there is not one of
them that is related to health.
3661. The response also says that the panel
is seen as a monitoring body only and has no decision powers.
It does not have any technical oversights on increased traffic
in the area. They suggest that we provide the contractors—this
is a for instance of our input into the lorries that we were talking
about—with local knowledge, such as when shops have their
deliveries and that Crossrail say that they will provide us with
information within reasonable time and the panel will have a useful
but not important role input into the health impact assessment.
That is why we say we are not experts on that particular issue
and we would like a site-specific.
3662. I told Crossrail last Thursday that I
was going to be calling Dr Safir and would be handing in just
a couple of documents and rather assumed that that was the end
of the matter, but on Monday morning I had a very busy morning
because I had 13 emails from Crossrail, which I have just given
you a sample of one of them, which explains that it was going
to be providing me with documentation in paper copies, which arrived
at 12.30 and I think it is the same pile of documents, which Mr
Wheeler was referring to, and a CD and yet they constantly tell
us they are going to be providing information well in advance.
They knew that Spitalfields was going to be dealt with this week
in one form or another and yet Monday morning, 12.30, this pile
of documents arrived. I do not feel that Crossrail are engaging
with us in a very constructive way.
3663. Article 6(2) of the EIA directive says,
and I quote: "It requires information to be made available
to the public ... "—in other words people like myself—"
... within reasonable time in order to give the public concerned
opportunity to express an opinion" and so far we do not seem
to have much evidence because of the lateness of the arrival of
documents. I would like to reserve my rights to come back to the
Committee on issues raised once I have had the opportunity of
looking through the documents they presented to me.
3664. We are not sure how Crossrail see their
attempts so far as complying with the undertaking given in the
House of Commons regarding keeping the community informed, nor
have we seen any evidence, as I have said again and again, of
any work on the health impact assessment nor have we seen any
evidence that they want to build on the King's Cross experience
of community consultation and we have seen no evidence certainly
that they would be prepared to treat us as equal partners.
3665. All of this means is that the Community
Liaison Panel has still not been formally constituted and is in
no state, and I understand I heard you say to Mr Wheeler, could
the Community Liaison Panel not deal with those deeds, I am afraid
to say at this stage there is no way the Community Liaison Panel
can deal with settlement deeds. You may say that the community
members need to get their act together and formulate themselves
into a proper thing and I can see you nodding and saying that,
I could see what you were thinking across the room, and it may
be so, but because there is a sense that we are being dragooned
into a particular way, a particular style of setting up the Community
Panel and we do not seem to be getting much support in getting
it together, we are having difficulties. There are very few numbers
of us and one of the reasons there are such few numbers is that
it is a talking shop for two hours. Once we are formally properly
constituted, once we know what we can do and once we know what
we can influence, once we know what our boundaries are, what we
can do, we want to go out and get as many people to those meetings
as possible so they can go back and present to their various organisations
or as individuals to their neighbours. We are willing to enter
into negotiations and we are willing to become an active role
along with a lot of other organisations in the area to be able
to engage with Crossrail in the Community Liaison Panel but we
do believe that there should be certain conditions and we do believe
that we should be recognised and treated as equal partners.We
also believe that we should be recognised as active and involved
residents from groups which are knowledgeable about the needs,
the general health and well-being of our community, and in a position
to bring this all to the attention of Crossrail, and the local
authority for that matter; that we are knowledgeable and capable
of fully understanding what impacts the Crossrail project at the
Hanbury Street site will have on the community.
3666. We have asked Crossrail to provide us
with appropriate training in order that we can actually understand
in more detail the technicalities of the whole project and the
impact it will have on the area. We have also asked that, perhaps,
that training could include us developing some skills so that
we can negotiate with them to introduce appropriate mitigation
to reduce that harm on the community. However, we would need assurances
that we will be given the opportunity to influence decisions relating
to all aspects (but I understand we are not going to get those),
that we are provided with full and appropriate information when
requested and that they will provide us with financial support
if we would like to introduce or actually involve some independent
experts to advise us in order to be able to negotiate with Crossrail
on mitigation.
3667. Once we have those assurances we believe
that we can make the community panel actually work properly; we
can make it become much more representative and we will make sure
that we go out and encourage people to take part in a panel that
has got some role. At the moment it does not appear to have any
role. Nobody in their right minds wants to sit through two hours
of discussions without any positive or constructive outcome. I
appreciate you are probably sitting through a lot longer than
that, but hopefully you will have some positive outcomes!
3668. Basically, the Community Association is
seeking advice from you on how we can get some specific undertakings
that are accepted and given by Crossrail, and in a way that we
can actually monitor them. The first one is in relation to the
health impact assessment that I have already raised with you.
I appreciate you have alternative ideas, but I will come back
to what I believe should be a way forward, which is that Crossrail
immediately engages with the health professionals in Tower Hamlets
in general, and Spitalfields in particular, to begin the process
of a site-specific health impact assessment relating to the proposed
Hanbury Street construction site.
3669. Part of that site-specific health impact
assessment, and in conjunction with appropriate health professionals,
should begin to formulate proper and apposite mitigation plans
that can be put in place once the construction begins in order
to maximise the reduction of harm from the anticipated impact
of the Hanbury Street construction site, including the potential
impact of increasing traffic from sites, and for that same group
to reconsider lorry movements to increase from 30-minute stoppages
through to 30-60 minutes and to implement some form of stoppage
at lunchtime in order that the children can be collected from
and returned to school in safety.
3670. The second undertaking that we are asking
the Committee to help us in asking Crossrail to give to us today
is by recognising, as I have read out earlier on, treating the
community as an equal partner, recognising that we are knowledgeable
and that we would bring that knowledge to the community liaison
panel, which will be of use to both Tower Hamlets Council and
to Crossrail. We understand the impact Crossrail will have in
the area but we do need some training to help us understand the
technicalities and give us the skills to negotiate with them on
mitigation, and issues such as that. We would like the opportunity
to influence some of the decisions relating to aspects of the
Hanbury Street construction site. We want them to give us the
information when requested in reasonable time, so that it can
be considered. We do need some financial support, as I said, and
we need some with regard to maintaining the administration of
the community liaison panel, and help us to finance information
to go out to people.
3671. What we really want from the Committee
and from Crossrail is for Spitalfields to be seen as a special
case, in these circumstances. As acknowledged in the health impact
assessment, we will be one of the worst-affected areas in the
project altogether and it, therefore, needs special attention
from Crossrail. Hopefully, the Committee will support that particular
view, which you may think is personal but I am speaking on behalf
of quite a wide constituency of people. Thank you for listening
to me.
3672. CHAIRMAN: I think the 11 emails
and the CD that you received were the material that we ordinarily
ask the parties to exchange before the hearing. It is what Crossrail
sent to you by way of the material that they were likely to rely
on. I would have thought that was quite a good idea.
3673. MS COVE: I am not complaining about
it not being a good idea, I am complaining about the fact that
13 emails were on my computer on Friday—and I was away for
the weekend so I did not pick them up until Monday morning. I
appreciate it is not your fault, Mr Elvin, but, nevertheless,
the paper copies arrived at 12.30, and those were the documents
that Crossrail were telling you they were going to be relying
on this week, and 12.30 on Monday morning when I am due here at
2.30 to give my evidence to you is not, in my opinion, a reasonable
length of time for documents to be delivered to me, when Crossrail
knew that we were due up here at least two weeks ago. We had the
programme two weeks ago.
3674. LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN: I
am not quite sure where to start, but I have a couple of things.
Are you seriously asking us to override an agreement that Crossrail
has reached with the local schools? I am really puzzled about
that. They have been in consultation with the local schools, they
had established the periods of activities and established the
times that the schools feel are right, and so do the local authority.
I can understand you bringing up something they might have missed,
but I really find that a very difficult request to meet, personally.
3675. The other thing I cannot understand—I
suppose there have been other liaison panels that have worked
as liaison panels and it does seem to me it depends on how you
are going to approach this. If I may just address one of your
points: for instance, you want the right to seek to renegotiate
the Code of Construction Practice, which is defined in here.
3676. CHAIRMAN: I am afraid the Committee
may feel they have to go and attend a division.
3677. MR ELVIN: Could I assist? We had
been making arrangements with Ms Cove that if she did not get
on today she could come along first thing in the morning. Can
I suggest we conclude this first thing tomorrow morning, before
we go to the business for tomorrow?
3678. CHAIRMAN: If Khoodeelaar are not
going to come we may have a bit of time in hand.
3679. MR ELVIN: We have Professor Mair
as well, but I think we should have time.
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