Examination of Witnesses (Questions 4320
- 4339)
4320. MR TAYLOR: Past any one point on
the lorry route, the most you will have is 16 movements per day
during the peak period, as we can see from this proposed lorry
route.
4321. LORD SNAPE: Would this gyratory
system be used by other Heavy Goods Vehicles? Is it a normal route
or are most HGVs confined to the main through road?
(Mr Thornely-Taylor) My Lord, there are
HGVs using these roads and, in fact, in a 2005 traffic count I
think about 18 Heavy Goods Vehicles were measured during the three-hour
morning peak period alone and that is one of the reasons for the
insignificant effect of adding 16 over a whole day to the baseline
traffic plans.
4322. They of course are subject to no such
restriction?
(Professor Mair) None at all, no.
4323. BARONESS FOOKES: Of course from
the point of view of the residents, they are going to be conscious
of the cumulative effect, are they not, not whether it is Crossrail's
quiet ones or others which may be noisier?
(Mr Thornely-Taylor)
Well, I do not think so, my Lady. The methods that are used for
assessing the effects of lorries are well-established. There have
been many major public inquiries fought solely on the effect of
lorry movements, and the methods that are used for doing these
assessments are tried and tested and established as being an accurate
way of evaluating the impact. Certainly if people are particularly
upset about a project and anything they can detect that is associated
with a project that is really worrying them, then they may get
anxious about anything that is associated with something that
they wish had never happened, and that may occur because, as we
know, as I think it was said in Mr Berryman's evidence, this is
not a popular project in this area, so there may be people who
will be disturbed by anything identifiable as being associated
with it. However, in objective terms, the methods of assessing
the environmental impact of lorry movements are so well-tested
and established that we can rely on them.
4324. But the total volume of noise, if I can
put it in layman's terms, will, from the residents' point of view,
have to include the unregulated lorries as well as the Crossrail
ones. They are not necessarily going to be able to distinguish,
are they?
(Mr Thornely-Taylor) Not necessarily,
no. It is not so much the volume of noise, just the number of
times a vehicle passes and 16 vehicles and 16 lorries a day is
only in any one hour just a few, one or two, in any one hour,
so, for example, it is not a steady flow of lorries going to a
site one after the other, it is just an occasional extra lorry
added into the base flows on that street and road network.
4325. Is there anywhere we could conveniently
visit such a major building site or construction site where you
said we would be very impressed?
(Mr Thornely-Taylor) The works going on
at King's Cross Underground Station are very large indeed with
enormous underground excavations taking place, but it would not
be possible to visit it because you need to climb large depths
to get down inside the project.
4326. LORD SNAPE: We are not as decrepit
as we look!
4327. BARONESS FOOKES: I was thinking
of the lorry movements on the surface.
(Mr Thornely-Taylor)
It might not be a very good example in the context of Spitalfields
because King's Cross is obviously on the edge of a very heavily
trafficked road. It may be possible to come up with an alternative
which is slightly more relevant, but there have been through the
last couple of decades many major civil engineering projects in
central London. When the Jubilee Line Extension was being built,
Westminster Station was a much larger site than this is and I
am sure your Lordships saw it all from beginning to end and I
suspect you might not have heard it from beginning to end. I know,
my Lady, you said that you had felt some vibration at one stage.
4328. In the Speaker's chair in the Commons,
yes.
(Mr Thornely-Taylor) I have no idea what
caused that, but I think it is probably true to say that in general
it was not an intrusive piece of work and it was a very, very
large civil engineering project.
4329. MR TAYLOR: Mr Thornely-Taylor,
you said that the increase in noise would be about 1 to 1.5 dB,
I think.
(Mr Thornely-Taylor)
That is using the index for highway noise assessment which has
been so well-established in many public inquiries.
4330. How would anybody perceive that change
in the decibel level comparing the situation without the Crossrail
construction occurring at Hanbury Street and with it?
(Mr Thornely-Taylor) Well, it will be
perceived simply as more lorries rather than louder lorries, so
the 1.5 is actually representing the capability of these noise
indices to account for numbers as well as noise level, and the
1.5 is actually just accounting for the greater numbers of lorries,
and not a very much greater number, rather than an increase in
loudness. Only if a lorry visiting the Crossrail site happened
to be right behind a lorry that was on that road for another reason
would there be an increase in loudness because you would hear
both at the same time.
4331. LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN: What
is the maximum number of lorries per hour, given that there is
some restriction, is there not? We have got the schools imposing
some restrictions, do we not?
(Mr Thornely-Taylor)
I cannot give an answer to that, my Lord, and I am not even sure
that a maximum figure per hour is available, but, based on 16
for a whole day, it is not a high number.
4332. MR TAYLOR: I will have to take
instructions on that and, if I can find out the answer, I will
come back and give it to the Committee. My understanding is, as
Mr Thornely-Taylor has just confirmed, that we do not have an
hourly figure.
4333. LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN: No,
but the Petitioner talks about huge numbers of lorry movements
being required and I just wanted to try and get some perspective
into this. Given that there are only 16 a day, I cannot see that
there are likely to be more than three or four an hour.
(Mr Thornely-Taylor)
I am sure your assumption is a reasonable one, my Lord.
4334. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: For
how many months will this be used?
(Mr Thornely-Taylor)
The 16 a day is for a period of about nine months and the number
per day drops to about six lorries a day for the remaining part
of the construction period.
4335. How far do you tunnel at that time? Nine
months' tunnelling must certainly take you a long way away from
Spitalfields.
(Mr Thornely-Taylor) Yes, it does, my
Lord.
4336. How does the spoil get back to the exit?
(Mr Thornely-Taylor) The lorries are not
involved in spoil removal. The lorries are simply for dealing
with the construction work at this site, the construction and
sinking of the shaft, bringing in lining segments for the shaft,
installing the concrete slab over the shaft and generally construction
work locally. It is not a site where spoil is removed.
4337. So where does the spoil go?
(Mr Thornely-Taylor) The spoil goes by
conveyer to Paddington and is removed by rail.
4338. MR TAYLOR: I think we will move
on to the last point, Mr Thornely-Taylor, about the ventilation
shaft itself, when it is actually operating, and it is fan noise
in particular we are concerned with. A number of Petitioners,
including the coalition of residents and Petitioners of Woodseer
Street and the Hanbury Street residents, have requested in their
Petitions "the provision of noise requirements that meet
the standards of the EC Environmental Noise Directive". Now,
can you help the Committee please as to what standards does the
EC Environmental Noise Directive prescribe?
(Mr Thornely-Taylor)
None. It is not a Directive for prescribing noise standards. It
is a Directive for achieving certain strategic actions on the
part of member governments, for example, noise mapping, the formation
of noise action plans and measures of that kind. It leads to individual
Member State governments' decisions as to what noise limits they
should locally apply.
4339. CHAIRMAN: This is 2002/49, is it
not?
(Mr Thornely-Taylor)
Yes, my Lord.
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