Examination of Witnesses (Questions 5740
- 5759)
5740. CHAIRMAN: But it is no use Ms Jones
going away and saying, "That's now been promised" because
it has not been?
5741. MR TAYLOR: No, it has not. The
approach to the permanent track support system is set out in the
words in IP D10, as it is at present, so we say that the likelihood
is that, whilst noise from the passage of trains may be audible
within properties, it is audible at a level which could not be
classified as unacceptable or impinging upon the amenity of those
within the properties in any meaningful way and that that is secured
through the policy set out in IP D10. I think that is probably
all I can say to summarise the position.
5742. CHAIRMAN: Ms Jones, I have just
been looking at your Petition again during the adjournment, starting
at paragraph 34 and going on. Have you covered everything that
you want to say to support that?
5743. MS JONES: Perhaps I could sum up
our position on the noise issues.
5744. CHAIRMAN: Yes, of course you may,
but I am just saying that I have been looking again at the terms
of your Petition and I want to make sure that you have covered
it.
5745. MS JONES: Yes, I have thank you,
on the noise.
5746. CHAIRMAN: Yes, so you sum up.
5747. MS JONES: I think it is clear from
what the Promoters say that they appreciate that 40dB is not acceptable,
it is too loud, because what the Promoters are asking us to rely
on is comfort that it will in fact be lower, even though, as the
Promoters say and Mr Thornely-Taylor says, it may well be audible.
Now, I have a lot of difficulty going back to the residents in
Spitalfields and saying, "You will be able to hear the trains".
What I would like to be clear on here is that we are asking for
the track measures so that the design is not more than 25dB in
Spitalfields.
5748. One of the things that makes Spitalfields
and all those listed buildings so precious is the atmosphere in
the houses and that is the nature of the noise levels, apart from
anything else. If you were to go into the museum in the old synagogue
at 19 Princelet Street, you would appreciate how important it
is to, if you like, the cultural and historical significance of
those buildings what the internal atmosphere is like, so we are
asking for those enhanced measures in Spitalfields. It is only
a cost issue and, even if you were to take the view that it would
have to be put in across the board in order to ensure that all
residents could not hear anything above 25, then it seems to me
that that is not an unacceptable proposition. There may be a cost
element to it, but what we are looking at is the residents' peace
of mind, if you like, and keeping the nature of the properties
as they are at the moment. I think it was Lord Snape who referred
to hearing the noise of motorways and heavy roads and whether
you would actually notice the noise of the trains, but of course
we are nowhere near a motorway and the busy road we are shielded
from by a lot of very large buildings, so these roads are actually
very quiet. We may get one car every, I think I said, five or
ten minutes or so. I think also on the noise levels, which the
Promoters showed in the ES, there was one property there at 51
Princelet Street and the noise levels, as we saw from the Arup
report, inside Christ Church are 34, and I think one of my neighbours
said Crossrail did come and do a noise reading in their property
one day. The doors were open, there were five people in the room
and the noise level, I think, was about 32.
5749. CHAIRMAN: That was inside?
5750. MS JONES: That was inside, but
the doors were open and there were five people in the room, so
I think we are talking about fairly low internal noise levels
and, if we look at 40dB, and that is what it is going to be designed
to, I think at that level we could hear the trains. What I would
like to ask—
5751. CHAIRMAN: I think, if you are going
to report back, you had better read the transcript, including
Mr Thornely-Taylor's last answer because that was specifically
about 40dB(A).
5752. MS JONES: I will do that, thank
you. In summing up, in order to ensure that we cannot hear the
noise of the trains, I would ask for an undertaking by the Promoters,
not a policy statement that this is what they are going to ask
for from the nominated contractor, but an undertaking by the Promoters
that either the levels will be such that we cannot hear anything
or that they will be designed in order to mitigate that risk out,
so I think we are asking for the floating-slab track or whatever
that mitigation measure is to be installed in Spitalfields so
as to ensure that the noise from the operating trains does not
exceed 25dB.
5753. CHAIRMAN: I will have to leave
the Promoters to say whether they can accommodate that.
5754. MR TAYLOR: My Lord, our position
is as is set out in IP D10 and we are going to continue to pursue
the policy set out in that paper of having an upper limit for
the design of the track form to protect residential properties
of 40dB LAMax,s. Whilst I am on my feet, I am concerned to hear
that Ms Jones appears to have taken from Mr Thornely-Taylor's
presentation of evidence and from what I have said that the Promoters
are somehow saying that 40 is unacceptable. That is not the case.
We are saying that 40dB LAMax,s within a residential property
represents an acceptable criterion to design the railway to, and
I do not think I can make that any more clear.
5755. CHAIRMAN: Is that something that
is going to appear in the new version of IP D10 once the work
with Camden—
5756. MR TAYLOR: Well, I hesitate to
second-guess what is going to come out through the negotiations
that are currently underway with the London Borough of Camden,
but my understanding, as I stand here today, is that that 40 figure
is not going to change.
5757. CHAIRMAN: But we are not going
to know that until we get the new version of the paper.
5758. MR TAYLOR: We are not, no, but
that is the main thrust of the discussions between the Promoters
and the local authority, so, as I say, I must not be held to that
because I am just reporting what I am aware of as I stand here
today.
5759. CHAIRMAN: I think that is as far
as we can go, Ms Jones, today.
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