Select Committee on the Crossrail Bill Minutes of Evidence

Examination of Witnesses (Questions 7280 - 7299)

  7280. What happens to the money? At the moment there is money set aside for that, is there not?

   (Mr Berryman) For the safeguarding?

  7281. Within the £16 billion?

   (Mr Berryman) There is money in the design budget for safeguarding, but there is no money for construction within the £16 billion.

  7282. So the money would still have to be found?

   (Mr Berryman) The money would still have to be found. The budget only covers preparation of design drawings to the not even final design drawings, but design drawings to the level which allows the land to be safeguarded properly.

  7283. But at the moment we have a number of partners creating the Promoters, being the Department, the City and Transport for London.

   (Mr Berryman) I think the Promoter is, strictly speaking, the Secretary of State for Transport as the Promoter of the Bill. The funding for the actual construction of the project will come from a number of sources, that is correct, my Lord.

  7284. What would happen under a TWA? Who would be the principal funder then?

   (Mr Berryman) That would depend on the circumstances at the time, my Lord; it would be difficult to judge just now. It would depend on the benefits, on the local government structure at the time—there are a number of issues that would determine that.

  7285. So it is very unclear where the money is coming from?

   (Mr Berryman) Yes, my Lord. Very unclear.

  7286. BARONESS FOOKES: Could I inquire about safeguarding? There is some safeguarding already in place and some that is being sought. Could I just be clear which is which?

   (Mr Berryman) There is a safeguarding all the way to a place called Hoo Junction, which is beyond Gravesend, and at Hoo Junction there is a provision for sidings for the trains to be stored overnight that would be needed to run the service, and enough land has already been safeguarded to modify the existing two-track railway but still with a two-track railway. What we are seeking to do with this supplementary safeguarding, if I can call it that, is to extend that so that over the crucial section between Slade Green junction and Dartford we can widen the track, which is currently only two or three tracks, to four tracks over the whole length.

  7287. So the four would go as far as Dartford?

   (Mr Berryman) Yes, that is right.

  7288. MS LIEVEN: On that last point, in very diagrammatic terms, if the Committee compare our exhibit 2 with our exhibit 3—and it is only diagrammatic because you cannot count the tracks—the additional infrastructure shown on exhibit 3 is the four-tracking scheme which is safeguarded, but this is only diagrammatic?[51]52

  (Mr Berryman) No. This section is not safeguarded for four tracks yet; it will be as a result of the new Order we are proposing to make.

  7289. LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN: That is the dotted line, is it?

   (Mr Berryman) Yes. Ms Lieven, you could put the Quail map up, if you want to!

  7290. MS LIEVEN: We could, just to entertain the Committee and let them know what we have generally saved them from.[52]53

  (Mr Berryman) This is a diagram which shows the actual tracks, and you can see (indicating bottom right) Dartford station and there are three tracks between Dartford station and this junction at Crayford—I always forget the names of these junctions. The area we would be four-tracking will be from here down here to there, (indicating) so trains would come (from the left) from London, would keep on the pair of tracks on this side (indicating the left) and go into Dartford station, and will be fully segregated from trains coming down this side of the layout into Dartford station, and that would allow you to add the four Crossrail trains without conflicting movements.

  7291. And where is Hoo Junction, which I think you mentioned earlier?

   (Mr Berryman) Hoo Junction is much further out, beyond Gravesend. In fact, one of the points I perhaps ought to make is that, if we were to extend Crossrail, Gravesend makes a better traffic objective than Ebbsfleet. Ebbsfleet is an interesting point in that it is an interchange with the Channel Tunnel Rail Link trains, but the centre of population is a little bit further on, about a mile further on at Gravesend, and then the stabling sidings would be beyond Gravesend again, at a place called Hoo.

  7292. BARONESS FOOKES: So, if you were going to go ahead with the extension, you would be extending it beyond Ebbsfleet?

   (Mr Berryman) That is right. We would be going as far as Hoo Junction, certainly.

  7293. MS LIEVEN: Finally, Mr Berryman, assuming the hybrid Bill scheme comes into law on its own, is there anything within that that prevents or inhibits or makes more difficult a future extension to Ebbsfleet if that is judged to be an appropriate thing to do at some future date?

   (Mr Berryman) No, there is nothing at all that has that effect.

  7294. MS LIEVEN: Those are all my questions, Mr Berryman.

  7295. CHAIRMAN: Mr Cameron, you may, of course, ask questions, but do you want to say anything about 36a?[53]54

  7296. MR CAMERON: My Lord, 36a is an attempt to provide information which your Lordship asked for. The central column headed "London Plan 2004" provides the information which was set out on page 36. The additional information provided is homes per annum and employment per annum in order to allow one to make a comparison with the next London Plan period. The right hand column is London Plan 2008 and we have been able to obtain information as to the assumptions made of Belvedere and Erith, although they do not appear in the London Plan itself because it covers the wider Bexley Riverside area. So like-for-like comparisons can be made. The number of homes has gone up; the number of jobs has come down; and you have the figures?

  7297. CHAIRMAN: And that goes through to 2026?
  (Mr Berryman) It does, my Lord, and that is on the assumption that Crossrail stops at Abbey Wood.

  7298. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much for that. Now, questions for Mr Berryman?

Cross-examined by MR CAMERON

  7299. Mr Berryman, I am going to try and concentrate on matters in dispute, and I do not have that much to ask you. First, until November 2004, the extension to Ebbsfleet formed part of the Promoter's scheme, is that right?

   (Mr Berryman) That is correct, yes.

51   52 Crossrail Ref: P49, North Kent Lines-Proposed Service Pattern under Integrated Kent Franchise (BEXYLB-44_04-002); and North Kent Lines-Proposed Service Pattern if Crossrail is extended to Ebbsfleet (BEXYLB-44_04-003) Back

52   53 Crossrail Ref: P50, Dartford Lines-Great Britain England, South & London Underground, The Quail Map Company Railway Track Diagrams 2nd edition, 2002 (SCN-20080401-003) Back

53   54 Committee Ref: A36, Planning & Regeneration Policy Framework 8a: New London Plan Amendments London Plan (36a) (SCN-20080401-004) Back

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