Examination of Witnesses (Questions 7280
7280. What happens to the money? At the moment
there is money set aside for that, is there not?
(Mr Berryman) For the safeguarding?
7281. Within the £16 billion?
(Mr Berryman) There is money in the design
budget for safeguarding, but there is no money for construction
within the £16 billion.
7282. So the money would still have to be found?
(Mr Berryman) The money would still have
to be found. The budget only covers preparation of design drawings
to the not even final design drawings, but design drawings to
the level which allows the land to be safeguarded properly.
7283. But at the moment we have a number of
partners creating the Promoters, being the Department, the City
and Transport for London.
(Mr Berryman) I think the Promoter is,
strictly speaking, the Secretary of State for Transport as the
Promoter of the Bill. The funding for the actual construction
of the project will come from a number of sources, that is correct,
7284. What would happen under a TWA? Who would
be the principal funder then?
(Mr Berryman) That would depend on the
circumstances at the time, my Lord; it would be difficult to judge
just now. It would depend on the benefits, on the local government
structure at the timethere are a number of issues that
would determine that.
7285. So it is very unclear where the money
is coming from?
(Mr Berryman) Yes, my Lord. Very unclear.
7286. BARONESS FOOKES: Could I inquire
about safeguarding? There is some safeguarding already in place
and some that is being sought. Could I just be clear which is
There is a safeguarding all the way to a place called Hoo Junction,
which is beyond Gravesend, and at Hoo Junction there is a provision
for sidings for the trains to be stored overnight that would be
needed to run the service, and enough land has already been safeguarded
to modify the existing two-track railway but still with a two-track
railway. What we are seeking to do with this supplementary safeguarding,
if I can call it that, is to extend that so that over the crucial
section between Slade Green junction and Dartford we can widen
the track, which is currently only two or three tracks, to four
tracks over the whole length.
7287. So the four would go as far as Dartford?
(Mr Berryman) Yes, that is right.
7288. MS LIEVEN: On that last point,
in very diagrammatic terms, if the Committee compare our exhibit
2 with our exhibit 3and it is only diagrammatic because
you cannot count the tracksthe additional infrastructure
shown on exhibit 3 is the four-tracking scheme which is safeguarded,
but this is only diagrammatic?52
(Mr Berryman) No. This section is not safeguarded
for four tracks yet; it will be as a result of the new Order we
are proposing to make.
7289. LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN: That
is the dotted line, is it?
Yes. Ms Lieven, you could put the Quail map up, if you want to!
7290. MS LIEVEN: We could, just to entertain
the Committee and let them know what we have generally saved them
(Mr Berryman) This is a diagram which shows
the actual tracks, and you can see (indicating bottom right) Dartford
station and there are three tracks between Dartford station and
this junction at CrayfordI always forget the names of these
junctions. The area we would be four-tracking will be from here
down here to there, (indicating) so trains would come (from the
left) from London, would keep on the pair of tracks on this side
(indicating the left) and go into Dartford station, and will be
fully segregated from trains coming down this side of the layout
into Dartford station, and that would allow you to add the four
Crossrail trains without conflicting movements.
7291. And where is Hoo Junction, which I think
you mentioned earlier?
(Mr Berryman) Hoo Junction is much further
out, beyond Gravesend. In fact, one of the points I perhaps ought
to make is that, if we were to extend Crossrail, Gravesend makes
a better traffic objective than Ebbsfleet. Ebbsfleet is an interesting
point in that it is an interchange with the Channel Tunnel Rail
Link trains, but the centre of population is a little bit further
on, about a mile further on at Gravesend, and then the stabling
sidings would be beyond Gravesend again, at a place called Hoo.
7292. BARONESS FOOKES: So, if you were
going to go ahead with the extension, you would be extending it
(Mr Berryman) That is right. We would
be going as far as Hoo Junction, certainly.
7293. MS LIEVEN: Finally, Mr Berryman,
assuming the hybrid Bill scheme comes into law on its own, is
there anything within that that prevents or inhibits or makes
more difficult a future extension to Ebbsfleet if that is judged
to be an appropriate thing to do at some future date?
(Mr Berryman) No, there is nothing at
all that has that effect.
7294. MS LIEVEN: Those are all my questions,
7295. CHAIRMAN: Mr Cameron, you may,
of course, ask questions, but do you want to say anything about
7296. MR CAMERON: My Lord, 36a is an
attempt to provide information which your Lordship asked for.
The central column headed "London Plan 2004" provides
the information which was set out on page 36. The additional information
provided is homes per annum and employment per annum in order
to allow one to make a comparison with the next London Plan period.
The right hand column is London Plan 2008 and we have been able
to obtain information as to the assumptions made of Belvedere
and Erith, although they do not appear in the London Plan itself
because it covers the wider Bexley Riverside area. So like-for-like
comparisons can be made. The number of homes has gone up; the
number of jobs has come down; and you have the figures?
7297. CHAIRMAN: And that goes through
(Mr Berryman) It does, my Lord, and that is on the assumption
that Crossrail stops at Abbey Wood.
7298. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much for
that. Now, questions for Mr Berryman?
Cross-examined by MR
7299. Mr Berryman, I am going to try and concentrate
on matters in dispute, and I do not have that much to ask you.
First, until November 2004, the extension to Ebbsfleet formed
part of the Promoter's scheme, is that right?
(Mr Berryman) That is correct, yes.
51 52 Crossrail Ref: P49, North Kent Lines-Proposed
Service Pattern under Integrated Kent Franchise (BEXYLB-44_04-002);
and North Kent Lines-Proposed Service Pattern if Crossrail is
extended to Ebbsfleet (BEXYLB-44_04-003) Back
53 Crossrail Ref: P50, Dartford Lines-Great Britain England, South
& London Underground, The Quail Map Company Railway Track
Diagrams 2nd edition, 2002 (SCN-20080401-003) Back
54 Committee Ref: A36, Planning & Regeneration Policy Framework
8a: New London Plan Amendments London Plan (36a) (SCN-20080401-004) Back