Examination of Witnesses (Questions 7960
- 7979)
7960. MR MONRO: My Lord, actually it
is my colleague Adam Scott who stepped off the Eurostar train!
7961. CHAIRMAN: I am sorry; my colleague
misled me!
7962. MR MONRO: My Lord, the problem
is that despite what Mr Mould has just said there are two practical
points which might arise in the event of such insolvency. First
of all, we have no ability to insist that the tab is picked up
by the government again. Secondly, should this happen at a point
in the construction which is a particularly physically sensitive
moment for our house—
7963. CHAIRMAN: I gave you the scenario,
did I not? They got to Greek Street and stopped without having
done any work. That is what you are worried about.
7964. MR MONRO: We are worried about
both points, both practical points. We have no right to insist
on anything, despite what Mr Mould has said, in that event.
7965. MR MOULD: With the scenario that
your Lordship put and has just been picked up on, I think one
has to stand back and just think about that in terms of practical
reality, if I may say so. It is, I think, relatively inconceivable
that the Secretary of State would contemplate a situation in which
the tunnel boring machine has reached Dean Street or Frith Street
and the nominated undertaker on this scenario then ceases to have
the funds to progress any further and the Secretary of State would
simply say, "There it is." The Secretary of State in
those circumstances would undoubtedly have taken steps in order
to ensure that the process of construction continued. For want
of a better reason, if the tunnel boring machine was to remain
stationary within the tunnels for any length of time it would
be extremely difficult to get it out again. I understand the concern
of the Petitioners, they are a charitable organisation and of
course they are concerned about matters of this kind and the risks,
but I think when one is assessing risks and the need to make specific
provision for them one of course needs to consider what is in
practice the likelihood of that risk eventuating. In simple terms,
on the particular scenario that has been put forward it is realistically
inconceivable that the Secretary of State would not have taken
steps to ensure that a substitute undertaking was in place able
to continue with the process. And it is unnecessary, frankly,
for that to be set out in contractual terms with every Petitioner
along the route, which is what would have to happen here because
there is no reason to distinguish between these Petitioners and
every other Petitioner in this respect. It is simply unnecessary
for that to be spelt and to add that level of further complexity
into the process. It ought to be enough in terms of giving them
comfort that that is what is likely to happen.
7966. I have mentioned the fact, albeit in somewhat
complex language that is unfortunately associated with these matters,
that one gets a little flavour of that being the Secretary of
State's position from the head of terms document that I have shown
to Mr Scott and which is available for others and will no doubt
have been something that other Petitioners who have been thinking
about this point, corporate bodies large and small whose shareholders
will require appropriate safeguards that their rights are being
protected, they will have had those points in mind when they were
negotiating with us. Nobody else has raised this matter with you,
as you know.
7967. LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN: I
understand the concern and, if I were one of the trustees, I would
think it a legitimate concern to express, but it is a hypothetical.
I would not compare it to Northern Rock and I was thinking more
of Metronet actually where we did have an undertaker and it did
not all collapse. Just as you cannot prescribe for what would
happen if a metaphorical sky fell in and destroyed half of your
wonderful place, I think it is reasonable for us to make a note
of it, but no more than that. I think what has been referred to
by Mr Mould seems to me reasonable in the circumstances, bearing
in mind that we are talking about an extremely unlikely hypothetical
situation where I cannot believe that any government would allow
the tunnel-boring machine just to lie there. There would be the
health and safety considerations anyway, so I just think we ought
to get this in perspective.
7968. CHAIRMAN: Lord James, do you want
to ask something?
7969. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: Any questions
I would have would be simply down at the line of wishing to know
what the trustees of this splendid building would do in the inevitability
of some 30 years hence when, without Crossrail, the ceiling is
going to come down about their ears anyway and what arrangements
they have made which are otherwise going to be compensated by
the presence of Crossrail.
7970. CHAIRMAN: Well, I do not think
fortunately that that is something that we need to put into the
Bill.
7971. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: I do
not think it is relevant from where we are. It is the only line
of questioning I would go down, but I do not think, where we are,
that it is necessary.
7972. BARONESS FOOKES: I have not so
much a question as an observation. I feel that by bringing the
concerns here today, the Petitioners can be satisfied that they
have done everything possible to satisfy themselves and their
fellow trustees that they have done everything that they can and
that it has all been placed on the record.
7973. CHAIRMAN: I think that is a very
positive way of putting it. Mr Mould, we have now had the Channel
Tunnel Link, the Jubilee Line Extension, various bits of the Dockland
Light Railway all done under private legislation and the same
problem could easily have arisen with any of them. Was anything
put into the legislation to deal with it?
7974. MR MOULD: My recollection is that
there was nothing put in at the time which has been mentioned
today to deal with this eventuality in relation to those two Acts.
7975. CHAIRMAN: By contrast, the PPP
scheme for the Underground, when the contractors failed, the Government
stepped in or somebody stepped in.
7976. MR MOULD: Yes.
7977. CHAIRMAN: So that is the practicality
of what happens.
7978. MR MOULD: That is really the point
that I have been seeking to make, yes. I am told that I may have
been slightly underselling the provisions in the Heads of Terms
document. What I do not want to do is to prolong this unnecessarily.
7979. CHAIRMAN: Neither does anybody
else, but, on the other hand, it is a very fair point which needs
to be cleared up.
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