Examination of Witnesses (Questions 8120
- 8139)
8120. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: So you do
not accept the South West Regional Assembly's argument that people
coming up from the South West, from Plymouth and places like that,
would want to go into Reading and go straight through to Heathrow
using Crossrail?
(Mr Berryman) They could not use it.
8121. Their argument is that there would be
a substantial increase.
(Mr Berryman) You cannot go direct from Reading to Heathrow
by Crossrail under any envisaged scenario. You would have to change
at Hayes and Harlington and go back into Heathrow as there is
no direct link from the west side into Heathrow.
8122. I think they argued in their Petition
that you should have a line running through, a Crossrail line,
from Reading into Heathrow ----
(Mr Berryman) They did argue that, my Lord—
8123.—so that people coming up from the
South West could then gain access to Heathrow without the necessity
of going any further into London.
(Mr Berryman) Such work would be very substantial. It would
involve building a new junction facing west on the west side of
Heathrow Airport and a new line up from Heathrow. The traffic
on offer, I am sorry to say this, is not that great. People get
confused between railways and airports because airports always
seem to have more people around them than railway stations, but
one reason for that is that people wait there for three hours
before they catch their plane, so there is a difference in scale
between railways and airports. The kind of railway which we are
offering, which is a very high-capacity service, you really have
to have a lot of passengers to justify putting it anywhere.
8124. I am only going on what they were arguing.
(Mr Berryman) Indeed, my Lord. One of the difficulties we
have in planning railways is that there are a lot of people with
maps and pencils who do not perhaps understand the economics of
construction or the economics of the operation of a railway and
they come up with all kinds of suggestions. We have had very,
very many of those suggestions in the course of preparation of
the scheme.
8125. I presume you have put these convincing
arguments to them and that is why we are not hearing from them
this morning
(Mr Berryman) I trust that that is the case, my Lord.
8126. BARONESS FOOKES: I think there
are coach services, are there not, between Reading and Heathrow?
(Mr Berryman) That is correct, my Lady, there are. I think
there will be a relatively attractive way of getting to Heathrow
by train from the Reading direction, but it would mean changing
at Hayes and Harlington. As I said earlier on, we are hoping to
provide a semi-fast service from Reading to the principal Thames
Valley stations and that may well be a train that is coming through
from Oxford, so it passes through Reading, but serves these destinations,
and access rights will be sought via Network Rail in the normal
way through the Office of the Rail Regulator.
8127. MR ELVIN: I think that concludes
your brief run-through of some of the rail infrastructure issues.
I do not know whether the Committee would find that a convenient
point to break and, if Mr George has any questions, for him to
ask them after the break.
8128. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: I have one
question, following up on my interest of where people come from
when they are seeking to go into Heathrow. Presumably it is BAA
that does the research of the original source from which people
come or presumably somebody has got statistics on this?
(Mr Berryman) They do, my Lord, and BAA does a regular survey
and the Civil Aviation Authority also periodically do it and they
have a sort of postcode of origin, postcode of destination type
of thing.
8129. You had access to all of that?
(Mr Berryman) We have, my Lord.
8130. LORD SNAPE: On that same point
then, Mr Berryman, can you explain to the Committee why you are
fairly dismissive of the need for a west-facing junction into
Heathrow because of the lack of traffic from the South West and
why Heathrow is to be treated differently from, for example, Manchester
where initially access into Manchester Airport by rail was from
the north, from the Greater Manchester direction, but it was very
soon felt necessary to provide a south-facing connection.
(Mr Berryman) That is correct, my Lord. The works at Manchester,
according to my recollection, was a fairly simple cord which was
put in from the Styal lines up into the airport branch. The works
that would be required at Heathrow would be very, very substantial.
It would require a grade-separated connection somewhere in the
West Drayton area and it would require the construction of a new
line. As you probably know, there was a branch down there called
the `Colnbrook Line' which originally went down to Staines West,
I think, but the junction from that faces east in towards London.
That line could not be doubled because there is a very large M25
junction which is built right over the line and there is only
space for a single track in there at the moment. It would require
a full-grade separation facing west rather than a simple cord,
as was provided at Manchester. I think that is the reason. I have
to say, the traffic on offer at Heathrow is probably more than
was on offer for that connection at Manchester from the Crewe
direction.
8131. Yes, indeed.
(Mr Berryman) I recall the scheme at the time that it was
built and it was a modest scheme.
8132. As much as these things ever are of course!
(Mr Berryman) Indeed.
8133. Again, would a more accurate description
then of your views on a west-facing junction be that it is too
expensive for the traffic that is likely to be on offer rather
than, as you seem to imply, that there was not the necessary amount
of traffic on offer anywhere?
(Mr Berryman) What you have just said is correct and we are
looking at both sides of the equation. It is the cost versus the
amount of traffic on offer and I think that that equation does
not work for a west-facing connection and it misses working by
a very long way.
8134. BARONESS FOOKES: Mr Berryman, I
think you said that people might prefer to change at Hayes and
Harlington.
(Mr Berryman) Yes.
8135. But would they be doing that coming up
from the Main Line from the West Country, from Plymouth?
(Mr Berryman) No, my Lady, they would have to change at Reading
as well if they were coming from the West Country.
8136. This is what I was thinking, so two changes
when you have luggage is not a good idea. You would be an encumbered
passenger.
(Mr Berryman) If you were trying to get there in the quickest
way possible, my Lady, your best way would be to go into Paddington
on your Intercity train and change on to the Heathrow Express.
That would actually be quicker.
8137. And more expensive of course.
(Mr Berryman) I fear so.
8138. CHAIRMAN: Mr George, I think you
probably want to ask some questions, but this is the time of day
when we tend to break for a cup of coffee.
After a short break
8139. CHAIRMAN: Mr George, you have some
questions?
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