Examination of Witnesses (Questions 8340
- 8359)
8340. MR ELVIN: Maybe Scrubs Lane or
something like that.
(Mr Berryman)
I think it is near Scrubs Lane, yes. No, I am sorry, it is further
east even than that.
8341. Ladbroke Grove?
(Mr Berryman) Ladbroke Grove, yes. I should
have remembered that because the site is where the crane stood
when it lifted the crashed vehicles off the Ladbroke Grove accident.
8342. MR FRANCIS: So it is not really
Old Oak Common, it is Ladbroke Grove. Going on to Ebbsfleet, the
extension beyond Abbey Wood to Ebbsfleet, I note that you have
said that you are concerned from an operational point of view
about sharing tracks and that is, as it were, almost a condemnation
of the rest of the network because you are saying that it would
cause delay on Crossrail. Is that a correct understanding of the
reasoning behind not going to Ebbsfleet?
(Mr Berryman)
Yes, I think that is a very reasonable statement. If you travel
by train at all down there, you will know what I am talking about.
8343. Or anywhere in the South East.
(Mr Berryman) Yes.
8344. You said that they could go on beyond
Abbey Wood to Ebbsfleet, but it would require some infrastructure
upgrades in the Dartford area. I know what would be required,
it would be four-tracking all the way from Slade Green certainly
to Dartford, so any idea of the costs involved in that?
(Mr Berryman) My recollection is that
it is about £250 million and, if that figure is wrong, I
will get back to you, but I think it is about £250 million.
8345. Just to conclude on Custom House, you
said in your response that to rejig the tracks, as we have suggested,
in order to give the cross-platform interchange would cost a lot,
whereas it is really just the cost of the ramp. I know you said
it is technically difficult to fit in and so on, but do you have
a cost on that because I was asked that this morning and I do
not have a costing on it?
(Mr Berryman) It is very hard to answer
that question because what you are really looking for is a differential
cost between what we are proposing to build and what will be required.
I would imagine it would be well over £100 million, but I
would not like to say exactly how much. It could be substantially
over.
8346. In the response, the Promoters said that
only 1,900 passengers would be interchanging at Custom House in
the morning peak. Did that include the potential from the Dagenham
Dock DLR branch?
(Mr Berryman) Yes, I think we have stated
in the Environmental Statement that we took into account all the
proposed schemes that were going to be built. I am not quite sure
whether the Dagenham Dock at that time was in the plan or not.
Again we can find out and let the Committee know.
8347. MR ELVIN: I can confirm to Mr Berryman
that it is not included.
8348. MR FRANCIS: So, assuming that the
Dagenham Dock branch is built and all the Thames Gateway development
around Barking Reach, we could expect that figure of 1,900 in
the morning peak to what—to double?
(Mr Berryman)
I really do not know, but doubling would not be unreasonable.
8349. So, as I was saying earlier, therefore,
over the 60-year period, the number of passengers interchanging
would be in excess of 100 million?
(Mr Berryman) Can I say again for the
avoidance of doubt that the reason for not doing this scheme is
not because of the cost. The reason for not doing it is because
of the physical dimensions of the site, the geometry and the tracks
that would be needed and the difficulty of altering the DLR infrastructure
there. If we got past that barrier, the costs would be a question,
but we cannot even get past the first hurdle.
8350. My recollection is that the DLR infrastructure
has to be altered anyway to fit Crossrail in. Is that right?
(Mr Berryman) The only bit of DLR infrastructure
that has to be altered is the tracks which are just laid on the
ground to the west of Custom House Station. The DLR tracks to
the east of Custom House Station, which, as you probably know,
go on to viaduct almost immediately after the station, remain
where they are, so it is relatively easy to slew or alter tracks
on the ground, but it becomes much more difficult if it is on
a structure because obviously you have to build a new structure
and tie it into the existing structure. It is also worth mentioning
that the depot for the DLR is at the end of that branch and they
need access to the depot. The maximum interruption that they can
tolerate is 24 hours to keep the railway running, so that would
be a significant problem with any works in this area.
8351. MR FRANCIS: Thank you. I have no
more questions.
Re-examined by MR
ELVIN
8352. MR ELVIN: I have just one point
of clarification, Mr Berryman. The cost of double-tracking from
Abbey Wood, I think you said a few minutes ago, is £250 million.
(Mr Berryman)
From Abbey Wood round to Dartford, yes, four-tracking.
8353. Can I just put to you the figure that
was given to the Committee on Day 18?
(Mr Berryman) As long as it is higher!
8354. The figure Ms Lieven gave to the Committee,
and it is paragraph 6889 on Day 18, was £500 million.
(Mr Berryman) Yes, I understand. The difference
tends to be that we think of construction costs at current prices
and what happens is that for the outturn costs we have added inflation
on, we have added contingency and we have added indirect costs,
so to give you the figures on the same basis, it is £16 billion
outturn costs for the whole project.
8355. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: Mere
fluff in the corner of your pocket!
8356. MR ELVIN: Which represents which,
Mr Berryman? I just want the transcript to be accurate.
(Mr Berryman)
The higher figure would be the outturn costs and the figure I
was quoting would be our current cost-based figures.
Examined by THE
COMMITTEE
8357. LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN: Actually
I was hoping that Mr Francis was going to bring us back to West
Drayton and slide 44.[52]
That one appeared interesting. What are the problems in relation
to that?
(Mr Berryman) Well, as I said earlier when
I was describing the layout, this is currently a single track.
A bit further down, quite a way further down, it passes between
two slip roads of the M4/M25 interchange which, as you will be
aware, is a very, very busy motorway junction. What the Petitioners
are talking about would require doubling that track and bringing
another track round here (indicating) through this wooded area
to join on to the Great Western Main Line further down. The problem
is that, first of all, that would be quite expensive to do and,
secondly, partly because it is in a water works just here (indicating),
you would have to go through the middle of that and that would
be the old problem, that we have to re-provide if we obstruct
things like that. Secondly, it would require a connection to be
made from the end of the Terminal 5 platforms through the end
of the airport facilities to join up with the existing, what is
known as, `Colnbrook branch' and used to be called the `Staines
West line', and it is expensive; there is a lot of work involved
in it. As I say, we just do not think the traffic is on offer
for this connection. I was checking the point that Lord Snape
made before lunch about the southern connection to Manchester
Airport. That is currently only timetabled for one train an hour
which is not a very intense use and that can be justified on the
grounds that it was a very cheap bit of infrastructure to build,
but this would not be a cheap bit of infrastructure, it would
be quite substantial and quite expensive.
8358. LORD SNAPE: On the same lines,
explain to me then the economics, Mr Berryman, of building a lightly-used
cord line to connect Manchester Airport from the south and building
a double-track line into the busiest international airport in
the world. You say, on the one hand, that there is no demand for
traffic as far as Heathrow is concerned, yet presumably someone
who did your job in Manchester decided that there was an economic
case for a cord line, for a Styal line from the south into Manchester
Airport.
(Mr Berryman)
Yes, they did, my Lord, and I think they have been slightly disappointed
by the outcome.
8359. So they did not have your foresight then!
(Mr Berryman) Well, yes!
52 Crossrail Ref: P55, Lafarge West Drayton Yard-Oblique
view looking east (LINEWD-XR7-044) Back
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