Examination of Witnesses (Questions 8420
- 8439)
8420. Now, your turn, for the moment, Mr Francis,
to sum up.
8421. MR FRANCIS: I would just say thank
you very much for the consideration that you have given, and I
look forward to seeing your recommendations and hope you will
endorse some of the suggestions we have made in our Petition.
Thank you.
8422. CHAIRMAN: You may want to look
at the material which is now promised.
8423. MR FRANCIS: Indeed.
8424. CHAIRMAN: And if you have any comments
to make on it we certainly would not object to receiving them.
8425. MR FRANCIS: Thank you very much.
I will take you up on that offer.
8426. LORD SNAPE: My Lord Chairman, before
Mr Francis leaves, then, will he have the opportunity, if he so
desires, to cross-examine, for example, BAA about western access
when BAA appears before us next week?
8427. CHAIRMAN: I am not so sure about
that. I do not think we can have Petitioners cross-examining each
other.
8428. MR ELVIN: It is sometimes called
"friendly fire"—although I am not sure it would
be that friendly in the present circumstances! Of course, I am
assuming BAA is going to turn up and it is entirely possible they
may not. It is not within our control. Certainly they had a representative
here this morning but he has gone. However, we will make sure
that their attention is drawn to the transcript of this afternoon
and the discussion, and we will also copy them in on any information
we provide to Mr Francis and to the Committee so that they are
on notice, should they want to add something, or to ensure they
turn up and contribute to the issue.
8429. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr Francis.
8430. MR ELVIN: My Lord, I think the
only remaining Petitioner for this afternoon is ATOC and, subject
to anything that is said, as I indicated in opening we have reached
substantial agreement with ATOC and there is a proposed undertaking
which has been the subject of considerable discussion.
8431. We are agreeable to it in principle; the
problem is that the various franchising interests within the Department
who need to sign off are still looking at it. It is the latest
draft that has been provided.
8432. What I am told I can say to the Committee
is that the substance of the proposed undertaking which you will
be shown in a moment is not in issue; all that remains is a sign-off
on the detailed drafting.
8433. What is agreed between us and ATOC is
that compensation should be based on the no net gain/no net loss
principle, and the difficulties and the differential in time between
ATOC's evidence and franchising agreements should not lead to
any reduction in compensation, which is the simple way of explaining
what is, I understand, a very complicated issue and one which
I am hoping your Lordships will not press me on because I am not
sure I can provide your Lordships with an entirely convincing
explanation of the complexities, but since I understand that the
substance is not in dispute and that we should be able to sign
off on the final version of this agreement within the next few
days, I do not think there should be much difficulty.
8434. CHAIRMAN: Mr Elvin, this was the
Petition in which clause 41.3 arose?
8435. MR ELVIN: I do not think ATOC is
presenting any points on that today. I do not think we are pursuing
that.
8436. MR EVANS: My Lords, no, we are
not.
The Petition of The Association of Train Operating
Companies.
MR NICHOLAS
EVANS appeared on behalf of the
Petitioner.
MESSRS BIRCHAM DYSON BELL appeared as Agents.
8437. MR EVANS: This is the proposed
undertaking at, I think, its last iteration. There is only a very
minor change in the drafting that has occurred since which is
the manuscript change that has been made on the last but one line,
"considered to be" instead of "treated as",
so you can see we are on to very weighty matters now.[53]
The Petition of Association of Train Operating
Companies (ATOC)
8438. MR ELVIN: I am not sure that matters.
8439. MR EVANS: Well, I understand it
is your wording! As Mr Elvin said, the principle and, it would
appear, almost all of the words are agreed and we wait to have
final sign-off from the Department for Transport.
53 Committee Ref: A46, Proposed undertaking in respect
of railway compensation (SCN-20080422-012) Back
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