Examination of Witnesses (Questions 8460
- 8479)
8460. CHAIRMAN: Are you still asking
for an undertaking on this?
8461. MR EVANS: It would help to make
the matter clear, my Lord, yes, particularly in view of what we
have heard from Mr Berryman earlier this morning, that compulsory
acquisition powers may only be conferred if it is reasonable and
necessary for them to be used. In this case we have heard from
the Promoter that they find it difficult to see how it could be
workable. We would suggest that the test of them being necessary
and reasonable is probably very difficult to meet.
8462. CHAIRMAN: There may be some difficulty
in drafting the undertaking, I think.
8463. MR EVANS: An undertaking not to
acquire the running rights of train operating companies under
clause 6 of the Bill would seem to cover the circumstances.
8464. CHAIRMAN: That is what you are
asking for, is it not?
8465. MR EVANS: Yes, my Lord. Mr Steel,
do you have any further points to make?
(Mr Steel)
No.
8466. MR ELVIN: I am just wondering if
Mr Steel could identify the rights in the schedule that he has
just commented on.
8467. MR EVANS: They are not set out
in the schedule to the Bill; but they are set out in the Book
of Reference. The Book of Reference, as you may recall, is split
on a borough-by-borough basis with the individual plots of land
being set out and the ownership of those being set out. Where
the individual train operating companies have land interests,
such as a leasehold and we understand those rights need to be
acquired, there is also a general page for each borough that sets
out the rights that exist throughout that area, for example the
rights of statutory undertakers. Those references include references
to the running rights of the train operating companies. These
are the ones that we understand the Promoter to have referred
to in their petition response document and those are the ones
that we are referring to.
8468. CHAIRMAN: I want to make sure you
are at one with Mr Elvin at what we are supposed to be looking
at.
8469. MR ELVIN: I am not 100 per cent
sure because clause 6 relates to land.
8470. MR EVANS: It is land and interests
in land: is that not correct?
8471. MR ELVIN: I do not understand.
The Petitioner is suggesting the running rights are rights in
land. That is what I do not understand. That is why I am looking
perplexed.
8472. MR EVANS: The running rights are
access rights.
8473. MR ELVIN: Contractual rights.
8474. MR EVANS: So not land interest
but they are land—
8475. CHAIRMAN: Where is it referred
to in the Bill?
8476. MR EVANS: It is referred to in
the Bill through clause 6 and through the Book of Reference. The
Book of Reference, which sets out all the land interests that
would be affected by the Bill, makes specific reference to the
running rights.
8477. CHAIRMAN: Yes, but where is the
reference?
8478. MR ELVIN: What is causing me difficulties,
my Lord, is that what is said in the Petition is the concern is
that we obtain through compulsory acquisition running rights;
rather than we are extinguishing them. Clause 16 says, "Your
petitioners are concerned to ensure compulsory powers should not
be used by the Promoter to gain running rights at the expense
of affected train operators". I am not sure how we could
compulsorily acquire contractual rights through powers which are
limited to acquiring interests in land. That is the difficulty
I have at the moment.
8479. MR EVANS: My Lords, we have identified
examples. We think this is potentially one of the issues that
has gone away as well with the access options, the belt-and-braces
approach.
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