Examination of Witnesses (Questions 9000
9000. LORD BERKELEY: What is your view?
(Mr Cann) Can
you just repeat the question, please!
9001. CHAIRMAN: I do not want to stop
you asking a question at all but just do not tell us what the
answer is in your view.
9002. LORD BERKELEY: The industry processes
and whether the Committee, if they did ask for specified works
to be included, whether that is contrary to industry process,
or could it go alongside it?
(Mr Cann) As
I have tried to indicate, I am not an expert in this area but
my view is that, no, we have to respect the industry processes,
that has been our consistent argument all the way along. However,
this is a special circumstance. Rather than this enhancement being
dealt with through industry processes, that should be dealt with
through the Houses of Parliament. You have other considerations
to take into account, and that is my view on that.
9003. LORD BERKELEY: Thank you very much.
I have nothing else to ask.
9004. CHAIRMAN: That was very much more
The witness withdrew
9005. LORD BERKELEY: I would now like
to call Jerry McLaughlin of the Quarry Products Association.
Sworn Examined by LORD
9006. LORD BERKELEY: Mr McLaughlin, can
you explain who you represent and how long you have been in the
My name is Jerry McLaughlin and I am Director of Economics at
the Quarry Products Association. I have worked in the sector for
22 years. The Quarry Products Association represents the aggregates
business, which covers supplies of crushed rocks, sand and gravel,
recycled materials and value-added products, such as asphalt,
concrete and lime into the construction sector. The Association
represents about 90 per cent of the industry by volume and all
of the business is involved in rail freight.
9007. Thank you. Slide 17, can you explain what
it all means and how aggregates and other building materials get
to London, and by what means?
(Mr McLaughlin) The map you see has a number
of green circles which are the receiving depots for aggregates
in London and the south-east. The blue squares are the originating
sources, the quarries; and in particular down in the bottom lefthand
corner there are quarries in Somerset, which are highly significant
in terms of supplying limestone into London; and, at the top of
the map, there are quarries in Leicestershire which supply igneous
rock, such as granite, into London. The key route is via Somerset,
and about five million tonnes a year of limestone comes into London.
9008. The next slide, number 18, gives it in
Could you explain that, please?
(Mr McLaughlin) You can see on the lefthand
side the red line is the Crossrail or Great Western line coming
into London. There is a series of depots which are adjacent to
the line. There is a series of other depots to the north-east
and south of London. What happens operationally is large trains
come into London as far as Acton and then they split up into smaller
trains and deliver to the depots via complex rail routes on the
map. The point here is, the basic need for this is one of geology.
There is not a great deal of rock in the south or east of England,
so in order to get the rock into London a long-distance delivery
is required; so an infrastructure of depots has arisen. These
depots will often have the value-added operation such as asphalt,
concrete plants, recycling businesses, so they form fairly strategic
sources of supply for construction in London.
9009. It is a bit like a London Underground
map for aggregates, is it not? The next slide, number 19, could
you explain that, the breakdown of materials?
(Mr McLaughlin) In simple terms, the London
market for aggregates is round about 15 million tonnes, that is
a 2005 figure from Government research. There are four sources
of supply: sand and gravel from effectively the Home Counties;
sand and gravel subject to marine dredging; crushed rock; and
recycled materials. In terms of the balance of supply, the sand
and gravel and the crushed rock are subject to constraints relating
to planning permissions and availability of land; marine gravel
is subject to licensing conditions relating to underwater extraction;
and recycling is subject to the availability of supply. We are
pretty close to the limit of recycling supply, which is mainly
construction and demolition waste in London. As a country we do
about three times more recycling than anywhere else in Europe.
9010. Could we look at slide 20 for growth.
(Mr McLaughlin) This is a projection which
is currently part of a consultation from the Department of Communities
and Local Government which breaks down potential aggregate demand
in the future by different government regions. This is the London
region and it shows a trend growth of supply which would equate
to a straight line of growth of, say, between one and two per
cent per annum. If we assume that the share of the different aggregate
sources into London remains the same, then that would indicate
an increase in demand which is consistent with the assumptions
for market demand that are set out in the forecasting work that
has gone through the timetabling process for Crossrail. If there
are particular constraints relating to the supply of sand and
gravel and recycled materials then the balance would be achieved
ideally by increasing the supply of crushed rock. That is the
kind of balancing act which depends on the various constraints
acting on each of the supply elements.
9011. Finally, if the Great Western was not
able to carry the aggregates traffic which is forecast, how many
extra trucks would they require to haul it on which road?
(Mr McLaughlin) It would be about a thousand
extra lorries travelling along the M4 every day.
9012. LORD BERKELEY: That is all I have
in examination. Thank you very much.
Cross-examined by MR
9013. MR ELVIN: Mr McLaughlin, tempting
as it is to ask about the number of lorries on the M4, I think
I will avoid that. I want to ask a couple of very brief questions.
I do not understand that your body was specifically represented
before the ORR at the hearing on 1 February?
No, we made written representations. We did not appear in person.
9014. You did not take the opportunity to make
any further written representations after the provisional decision
(Mr McLaughlin) No, we did not. Our position
was similar to that of the Rail Freight Group.
9015. In other words, you were broadly content
(Mr McLaughlin) We were broadly content.
We just have residual concerns, shall I say, particularly along
the western routes into London about the infrastructure provision.
9016. To cut a long story short, can I take
it that your position is equivalent to the Rail Freight Group,
and I have already asked them questions on those issues?
(Mr McLaughlin) Yes, I am happy to confirm
9017. MR ELVIN: Very well, thank you
very much. That keeps matters very short.
9018. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much,
The witness withdrew
9019. LORD BERKELEY: My next witness
is Lindsay Durham of Freightliner.
DURHAM, Sworn Examined
by LORD BERKELEY
27 Committee Ref: A52, Crossrail route and aggregate
depots/railheads (LINEWD-34_05-018) Back
Committee Ref: A52, Crossrail route and aggregate depots/railheads
Committee Ref: A52, The London Aggregates Market (LINEWD-34_05-020) Back
Committee Ref: A52, Aggregates Demand in London 2005-2015 (Source:
CLG consultation-April 2007) (LINEWD-34_05-021) Back