Examination of Witnesses (Questions 9200
- 9219)
9200. MR ELVIN: My Lord, I foreshadowed
it yesterday and we have just received materials from Network
Rail which I have not been able to look at overnight.
9201. CHAIRMAN: So have we.
9202. MR ELVIN: It says what I more or
less expected it to say. The position is this, as I explained
yesterday: that there is currently an issue as to how the central
section of Crossrail, that is to say, the tunnel section, is to
be regulated.
9203. CHAIRMAN: This is the infrastructure
manager point?
9204. MR ELVIN: Yes, this is the infrastructure
manager point. Just taking a step back, this involves at least
a three-way negotiation between the Promoter, Network Rail, represented
by my learned friends, and Transport for London. It is a negotiation
as to what precise regulatory mechanism should apply in terms
of the infrastructure manager for access and general purposes
under the central section. It is agreed that Network Rail should
be infrastructure manager for the purposes of the ROGs; that is
not in dispute. The difficulty is that this is an issue which
arises under current legislation. What Network Rail are seeking
to do is to seek undertakings from the Secretary of State which
would fetter his discretion under existing legislation, and to
give an undertaking would be unlawful because there is a negotiation
both on regulatory and commercial terms where, frankly, the Secretary
of State sees the logic in Network Rail having a considerable
involvement in the regulation of the central tunnel, as I said
to you yesterday, and TfL are arguing, or were arguing, for almost
complete exemption such as is the case with London Underground
and the Docklands Light Railway. That is not acceptable to the
Department for it to be completely exempt, but the precise nature
of the regulatory system which is to operate in the central tunnel
is a difficult matter and, as I said yesterday, it involves negotiations
outside the powers of this Bill.
9205. Therefore, in our respectful submission,
whilst we note Network Rail's concerns and we do see Network Rail
as having a major role to play, not least because of course we
have to access the central section from Network Rail's national
network and infrastructure, this is unfortunately a matter which
has to continue under existing legislation outside the bill process
and, therefore, in my respectful submission, although we are sympathetic
to what Network Rail have to say, it is a matter for further negotiation
and not a matter where Network Rail can properly ask your Lordships
to do anything about it.
9206. CHAIRMAN: It is the European Directive
point, is it?
9207. MR ELVIN: In part, it is the transposition
of the European Directives into national law.
9208. CHAIRMAN: Yes, it is the statutory
instrument which transposes it.
9209. MR ELVIN: And indeed under the
Railways Act.
9210. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: You have
an extraordinary situation. It sounds like one of these problems
that is so stupid it should not possibly be allowed to exist for
five minutes, but how long is that situation going to be allowed
to continue and still be able to proceed to the next stages of
Crossrail because you cannot possibly go on without agreement?
9211. MR ELVIN: My Lord, I understand
that agreement should not be too far off. Perhaps I can take precise
instructions as to where the negotiations have reached. (After
a pause). I am told, my Lord, that the regulatory side has to
be integrated in the financing arrangements and it is likely to
take a number of months, but certainly within the scope of this
year. It is not going to run on beyond that. It is certainly before
work commences.
9212. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: I cannot
see how you can start without it.
9213. MR ELVIN: Well, your Lordship is
right, which is why it has got to be concluded within the year.
9214. CHAIRMAN: It does not sound as
though we are going to have time to deal with it.
9215. MR ELVIN: Well, my Lord, as I have
suggested and as I say, although we are sympathetic to Mr Purchas's
clients' concerns, and indeed we are singing from the same hymn
sheet up to a large point, I do not think it really is a matter
for your Lordships.
9216. CHAIRMAN: Up to the last verse.
9217. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: It is
only a matter for us in the sense of where the whole thing's momentum
stands.
9218. MR ELVIN: Well, it is, my Lord,
but it is a matter lying within the scope of other legislation.
9219. CHAIRMAN: Now, Mr Purchas?
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