Examination of Witnesses (Questions 9480
- 9499)
9480. CHAIRMAN: This year?
9481. MR ELVIN: Yes.
9482. CHAIRMAN: And nothing was said
about it—
9483. MR ELVIN: This was TfL's opening
bid, as far as I am concerned, taking the position they are taking
in that document.
9484. CHAIRMAN: Would it not be relevant
to the ORR hearing on the access option?
9485. MR ELVIN: Well, my Lord, it may
or may not. I really wish to stress, I cannot speak for TfL.
9486. CHAIRMAN: You have done so very
well so far!
9487. MR ELVIN: Well, my Lord, with the
greatest respect, that is a considerable misrepresentation of
my position, with the greatest respect.
9488. CHAIRMAN: You keep on asking us
to listen to where they are coming from.
9489. MR ELVIN: Because, my Lord, I am
trying to get it across that we are in the position of having
to resolve a position from TfL and, since TfL are not here, I
am simply trying to show your Lordships what TfL's position is.
It is not our position, let me make that clear yet again, it is
not our position, but TfL are not here to speak for themselves.
Network Rail have a very strong position that they wish to put
forward. The Secretary of State will have to adjudicate, having
heard discussions between those parties, with the assistance of
the ORR. I cannot say on behalf of the Secretary of State, given
we have a statutory function conferred on her by Parliament, what
the result will be.
9490. CHAIRMAN: She has got a quasi-judicial
position.
9491. MR ELVIN: Absolutely and I am sure
your Lordship will understand why I cannot say. All I am anxious
for is that your Lordships see that there are lines drawn up on
both sides of the argument by TfL and by Network Rail and I am
simply trying to lay out before the Committee what those arguments
are just so that you can understand what we are having to adjudicate
on.
9492. CHAIRMAN: Well, I think we can
understand that, but, I am bound to say, I think we find it very
surprising that this should have started in March of this year
and it is not going to be able to be resolved in front of this
Committee and we are going to have to report on it.
9493. MR ELVIN: My Lord, can I say that
I understand that point, but we do not say, and it would be wrong
for us to say, that we control TfL. TfL have put forward this
position and we have to consider it. We are going to try and resolve
it as quickly as possible and I understand Network Rail's concerns.
I also similarly ask your Lordships to take account of what TfL
are saying on the other side because that is the issue we would
have to resolve and we are going to involve the ORR, let me make
that clear, to help resolve it.
9494. CHAIRMAN: But TfL are not Petitioners.
9495. MR ELVIN: No, which is why I have
been anxious that you understand at least that TfL have a point
of view, one that we have to resolve in reaching a decision.
9496. CHAIRMAN: Did they not think of
this until it was too late to petition?
9497. MR ELVIN: I do not know, my Lord.
This document came to us, and clearly it was also sent to Network
Rail, and we now have to deal with it.
9498. LORD SNAPE: How come TfL can apparently
change their mind at the last minute, submit a document to the
Department, have it considered, for you to come before this Committee
to say, "Oh, the Secretary of State has not yet pronounced
on this particular issue" when we all know how government
works? If I had written to the Secretary of State about this project,
she would have dismissed my representations out of hand on the
grounds that it has been passed by Parliament, though not yet
agreed, but it has certainly gone through much of its parliamentary
procedure, so how have TfL suddenly got themselves into this privileged
position of apparently changing their mind and being seriously
considered at this late stage in the Bill?
9499. MR ELVIN: Because they are paying
for half the project and we cannot simply—
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