Examination of Witnesses (Questions 9940
- 9959)
9940. But it is a tangible example of the use
of a CCM, is it not?
(Mr Smith) As I said to Mr Elvin, I am not an expert on the
CCM so I would not like to comment.
9941. BARONESS FOOKES: Mr Smith, would
I be right in thinking that, despite the very compelling arguments
put forward by Mr Elvin, you are not wholly convinced?
(Mr Smith) It is very difficult not to be convinced by Mr
Elvin.
9942. CHAIRMAN: Indeed.
9943. MR ELVIN: I have certificates for
that!
9944. LORD SNAPE: It can be part of your
next advertising campaign!
(Mr Smith) But I do have a sneaking doubt that Mr Elvin is
relying on an administrative mechanism. It is a bit of a case
of "trust us", "trust us that in ten years' time
it is all going to be okay", yet as we saw yesterday morning
with the debate over the central section, as we found out today
about the submissions about, "We don't want to include all
the freight paths in the objective test, do we?", which was
the debate at yesterday afternoon's Crossrail Timetable Reference
Group --- Mr Elvin comes over as a straight, honest and direct
individual but, sadly, Mr Elvin is not in the Reference Group
and will not necessarily be involved in the objective test. I
am a bit worried.
9945. BARONESS FOOKES: From your point
of view, what is the bottom line? We had this long list of works
undertakings, some are more key than others, so what would you
wish us to come to a conclusion on?
(Mr Smith) There were originally 24 works; we do not want
24. We have asked for six, one of which the Promoter has already
committed to do, so it is just the other five, which are those
quite simple pieces of siding or loops or platform faces, or the
loop at West Ealing. Those five, we believe, are the key ones
to make the Great Western Main Line, which is our primary interest,
operate flexibly for the benefit of all users when Crossrail starts.
9946. And on which you would like an undertaking?
(Mr Smith) Yes, please.
9947. BARONESS FOOKES: Thank you.
9948. LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN: I
know we had the worst case scenario but it is highly unlikely
that all those five infrastructure developments you have referred
to are going to be abandoned. You are seeking certainty on those
five. The Promoter's response has been, "Well, there may
be circumstances which can enable us to achieve the same outputs
without carrying out all the five that you have referred to".
Would you agree it is a highly unlikely situation that none of
those five are going to—
(Mr Smith) I absolutely agree because they have already committed
to Acton, they have virtually committed to the really big and
expensive scheme at Heathrow. The four other schemes we have identified
will not cost anything like the Heathrow scheme but are very beneficial.
The problem I have got is the reason the Promoters do not want
to commit to it is something else may turn up, but it has not
turned up in three years. Crossrail employs some very experienced
professional railwaymen, some of whom are sitting in the audience,
who if there was a magic alternative to some of these schemes
might have mentioned it by now. I really still believe that these
schemes, which have been thought through and worked through, are
the right ones to do and there are not other ones.
9949. LORD SNAPE: Mr Elvin set out his
views of what might happen in the future and gave us that engaging
and what politicians would call the sunny uplands, that somehow
this scheme will come in under budget and there will be lots of
money to do other things. I paraphrase, of course.
9950. MR ELVIN: I think your Lordship
has slightly taken my point beyond its logical boundary!
9951. LORD SNAPE: He did indicate anyway
that the scheme might come in under budget, Mr Smith. Supposing
it does not, and I am bound to say that is the more likely outcome.
I hope I do not disillusion Mr Elvin too much by saying that the
scenario he outlined does not come about, the scheme is over budget
and we get only two of the six essential works, in your eyes,
completed, Crossrail is introduced, there is a problem in Crossrail
meeting its 92 per cent because of the infrastructure failings,
then this, as you termed, administrative mechanism comes into
action, presumably as it is new it will take some time but what
happens to your customers in the meantime if your trains cannot
get through because of the situation we are in?
(Mr Smith) Existing customers will just use
other modes and potential customers will be put off using rail.
Again, as we are finding with all the disruption on the west coast
this year, in an increasingly competitive transport environment
customers have to have some certainty that their trains are going
to get through and their goods are going to get through.
9952. LORD JONES OF CHELTENHAM: My Lord
Chairman, as we seem to be in a situation where one and a half/one
and three quarters of the six infrastructure improvements have
been agreed to, or are in the process of being agreed to, Mr Smith,
from your earlier comment you say the other four are not going
to cost anywhere near as much but do you have any idea how much
they are going to cost?
9953. MR ELVIN: I am going to provide
your Lordships with the figures. I asked the self-same question,
and I will get the figures hopefully by the coffee break, or just
after.
9954. LORD JONES OF CHELTENHAM: Thank
you.
9955. CHAIRMAN: Is that everything for
Mr Smith?
9956. MR GEORGE: May I re-examine? Although
there have been moments when I have been wondering whether Mr
Smith has been being asked questions at all.
9957. MR ELVIN: As long as Mr George
does not want to re-examine me.
9958. MR GEORGE: I just wish I could!
Re-examined by MR
GEORGE
9959. Could we put up EWS 26?[10]
There we can see, Mr Smith, all you are asking for with the identified
works in the Bill. Those are your five works, and one of them
is not a work in the Bill, it is something which is on the tracks
that is referred to in the Environmental Statement, so that then
makes up the totality of what you are acquiring by way of undertaking.
(Mr Smith) That is correct.
10 Committee Ref: A57, Undetaking in relation to key
railway infrastructure works (LINEWD-103_05A-014) Back
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