Select Committee on the Crossrail Bill Minutes of Evidence

Examination of Witnesses (Questions 10120 - 10139)

  10120. MR ELVIN: I propose to call Mr Berryman shortly just to deal with the costs issue, particularly the point that my Lord, Lord Brooke raised this morning, which, if you can read my handwriting, I have had it photocopied.

The Petition of the Rail Freight Group

  10121. CHAIRMAN: Let's start with Mr Berryman then.

  10122. MR GEORGE: The only matter which slightly concerns me is Mr Garratt is here, your Lordships will recall, from the Rail Freight Group, and he simply has to be re-examined with any questions from your Lordships, and I know he has a pressing problem for this afternoon so I was wondering whether the ten-minute slot would be enough for Mr Garratt, who I know was in difficulties.

  10123. MR ELVIN: My Lord, I have absolutely no objection to that.

  10124. CHAIRMAN: We will do that then, although that deprives us of the opportunity of wishing Mr Berryman a very happy birthday while he is in the witness box, and I gather we should have done the same to you yesterday, Mr Elvin.

  10125. MR ELVIN: Thank you.


Re-examined by LORD BERKELEY

  10126. LORD BERKELEY: I have questions for you, Mr Garratt, from page 66 of Tuesday's transcript, when Mr Taylor questioned you about the level of detailed design required before a Petitioner could ask for a piece of work to be included, paragraph 9151.[26] Mr Garratt, from your experience of giving evidence in many major public inquiries on transport matters, is it normal for Petitioners or objectors to do the design for works which they want included or do not want included?

  (Mr Garratt) Yes, it is normal to produce designs which effectively describe the functionality of the track layout, if that is what it amounts to, that is concerned, yes.

  10127. And to what level of detail would you expect a design to be done such as we are talking about here?
  (Mr Garratt) To a level of detail which shows in two dimensions, preferably three, the track layouts, so it is possible to calculate the way trains will move in and out of the terminal, let's say, so that capacity issues can be reasonably explored.

  10128. LORD BERKELEY: If we can turn to page 68, paragraphs 9168 and onwards.[27] I am not going to ask you to go into details of how many trains and whether there is one too many or one too few. However, I believe you were at a timetabling group meeting yesterday. Could you just tell the Committee whether in your view the Promoters have accepted the ORR decisions in respect of a number of freight trains on the two main lines?

  10129. CHAIRMAN: I do not think he can answer what they have accepted.

  10130. LORD BERKELEY: Perhaps I could ask him to explain, my Lord Chairman, what happened there and whether the timetable work that is proceeding is based on the ORR's determination?

  10131. MR TAYLOR: My Lord, it is normal for re-examination to address matters that were raised in cross-examination, and I am afraid I did not raise this in cross-examination of Mr Garratt.

  10132. CHAIRMAN: I do not think you can take this point any further.

  10133. LORD BERKELEY: Thank you, my Lord Chairman.

  10134. Finally, on the next page, page 69, paragraph 9175, could you, Mr Garratt, just clarify what you were saying about the Ipswich-Peterborough-Nuneaton route?[28] Are you suggesting that the Committee should require that to be upgraded at any particular time --

  10135. CHAIRMAN: I can answer this: we are not empowered to do so.

  10136. LORD BERKELEY: That is what I was going to suggest. That is all I had to cross-examine on.


  10137. CHAIRMAN: Mr Garratt, you are an expert on modelling?

  (Mr Garratt) On forecasting.

  10138. LORD YOUNG OF NORWOOD GREEN: I am lost now. Is there a difference?
  (Mr Garratt) It depends what you are modelling.

  10139. CHAIRMAN: Do you not do that with a model?
  (Mr Garratt) Yes, but I am trying to distinguish between detailed timetable modelling, and forecasting.

26   Para 9151, Uncorrected Transcript, 29 April 2008 [Mr Reuben Taylor; Mr Garratt] Back

27   Para 9168, Uncorrected Transcript, 29 April 2008 [Mr Reuben Taylor; Mr Garratt] Back

28   Para 9175, Uncorrected Transcript, 29 April 2008 [Mr Reuben Taylor; Mr Garratt] Back

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