Examination of Witnesses (Questions 13060
- 13079)
13060. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: I just
wanted to go on the record with that comment. That was all.
13061. MR ELVIN: My Lord, can I simply
say for the record that the paper is only a very general statement.
The modelling is much more complex and does take account of the
catastrophic combinations, the adding together of different factors
cumulatively to generate different catastrophic failures than
might occur if they were to occur individually. That is to be
taken into account.
13062. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: I shall
say no more on the subject. I have said my piece.
13063. MR ELVIN: Can I give your Lordship
one example of where this has occurred in the past, where the
safety measures have built such matters in? If I take Eurotunnel,
I am told that because of the catastrophe modelling, seven layers
of redundancy were built into the signalling for the tunnel in
order to take account of precisely the sort of catastrophic combination
consequences which might occur, and appropriate mitigation measures
will in due course be built into Crossrail.
13064. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: Thank
you.
13065. MR ELVIN: I am much obliged. I
hope that deals satisfactorily with that issue.
13066. BARONESS FOOKES: Would I be right
in thinking, Mr Elvin, that if one attempted to go into all the
detail about which my colleague has spoken, it would probably
be incomprehensible?
13067. MR ELVIN: The modelling is very
complex and is very detailed. I have to say, I take, to a large
extent, the blame for the paper being very generalised and for
not dealing specifically with that point in the initial paper,
because I wanted it to be as comprehensible as possible. I asked
those responsible to explain it in terms which I understood in
the hope that I could then explain it to your Lordship's Committee
but, my Lady, I hope the Committee are reassured that it is only
the tip of the iceberg and it is only a general explanation and
that far more complexity lies under the surface.
13068. BARONESS FOOKES: Thank you.
13069. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: Do
the models take into account circumstances where Network Rail
does not own the facility?
13070. MR ELVIN: It takes account of
whoever owns the facility.
13071. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: Because
there are circumstances, as we know from past history, where a
range of ownerships can lead to greater risk.
13072. MR ELVIN: The model takes account
of matters such as the history of previous events, it takes account
of frequency, the nature of the events which have occurred, the
extent to which the events give rise to problems of a particular
magnitude, but it covers not only the National Rail network; it
includes also the Underground network. It includes a variety of
infrastructure operators and not just Network Rail. It covers
the whole range. For example, to take an example which comes directly
from London Underground rather than from the National Rail network,
it models the risk of suicides taken from Underground experience,
and that will lead in due course to platform doors such as exist
on the new part of the Jubilee Line. Experience is derived in
the modelling not only from the national rail network but more
generally in the rail industry.
13073. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr Elvin.
I think also at some time you want to say something about what
has been attributed to you by the Woodseer and Hanbury Residents'
Association.
13074. MR ELVIN: My Lord, there are a
number of matters that I hope to refer to this afternoon. I would
like to respond on the Woodseer and Hanbury letter. I am able
to present a position on the freight undertaking and give some
further explanation and some modification to the undertaking which
was proposed. I have sought clarification of certain matters and
I hope I can explain that satisfactorily to the Committee. I think
I need to deal with the infrastructure manager and give a few
separate explanations on that. I think Mr Taylor is going to respond
to points on the compensation paper. If we could deal with that
at a convenient point this afternoon.
13075. CHAIRMAN: Yes. I think we had
better deal with the letter from Woodseer and Hanbury while Mr
Goodman is here and the rest we can leave until later.
13076. MR ELVIN: Can I deal with that
at 2.30 in that case?
13077. CHAIRMAN: I wondered whether we
could come back a little bit before that.
13078. MR ELVIN: Whatever is convenient
to your Lordships.
13079. CHAIRMAN: We will come back at
2.15pm.
The Committee adjourned from 1.04pm until
2.15pm
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