Examination of Witnesses (Questions 13180
- 13199)
13180. You said something about the issue of
the station on Post Office land, is that right?
(Mr Berryman) Did I?
13181. You set out a number of reasons.
(Mr Berryman) I do not think I said anything about a station
on Post Office land. I thought it was Mr Schabas who referred
to the Post Office railway. It was not me.
13182. You set out a number of reasons why it
was considered an inferior alternative. Where can we look to find
those reasons?
(Mr Berryman) There is not a document which sets those out
in the form of the GOMMS criteria which we used later in the project.
That was at a fairly early stage in the development of the scheme,
it was before we were using that formal method of appraisal, so
there is not actually an appraisal document. It is all set out
in workshops and things of that sort.
13183. Are there any records of those workshops
that we can look at for those reasons why it was discarded?
(Mr Berryman) There may be. I could not tell you for sure
whether there are or not. If there are they will be in our archives.
13184. In terms of my ability to find documents
which evidence what you have said today, is there nothing you
can point to which shows that reasoning?
(Mr Berryman) I feel bound to say that this proposal did
not really get past first base. All we did was look at the engineering
aspect of it and then we decided it was not a principal alternative.
No, you will not find very much about it. It was rejected early
on.
13185. You accept you studied it to some extent,
but I think the difference between us is essentially down to the
meaning of the word "main", is it not? The definition
is a main alternative and you say it was not a main alternative
because in your view you did not get beyond a certain stage in
the development of the proposal, is that right?
(Mr Berryman) It was not a main alternative because it did
not do very much different from what the main proposal did and
it did it worse.
13186. CHAIRMAN: Mr Goodman, we have
ruled on main alternatives.
13187. MR GOODMAN: I shall ask no further
questions on that, my Lord. The issue of the Complaints Commissioner
is referred to in Information Paper F5.[13]
Is this what you were referring to earlier when you were giving
evidence about the way in which complaints can be made?
(Mr Berryman) Yes, that is right.
13188. It is right, is it not, that the Complaints
Commissioner has no power to deal with compensation, settlement
or conditions issues? That is what it says in F5.
(Mr Berryman) Do you mean financial compensation?
13189. Yes.
(Mr Berryman) That would be dealt with by other matters,
either by the Lands Tribunal or the courts.
13190. It says here all settlement issues or
all conditions.
(Mr Berryman) He would not be responsible for carrying out
conditions surveys, but if we had not carried out conditions surveys
properly then he would have the power to rule that we should do
so. It would not be for him to carry out conditions surveys, no.
13191. Let us suppose my clients do have a problem:
there is an intolerable noise and they cannot take an action for
nuisance because it has been suspended under clause 21 and so
they phone the helpline. What then happens at the other end of
the helpline?
(Mr Berryman) The helpline will either give an explanation
for why the noise is occurring or how long it is going to continue
or promise to look into it. That will be taken forward in the
normal way, as it would in any situation like that in the middle
of the night, by our own site staff and the contractor's site
staff to attempt to come to a resolution on the matter. With the
kind of thing you are talking about actually happening in the
middle of the night you are not going to resort to the courts
then; you have got to deal with the people on-site. That would
be the first stage. If it was persistent and there was no settlement
I would say that the householder would have two alternatives,
both of which could be pursued simultaneously. He could contact
the Complaints Commissioner and he could also contact his local
authority.
13192. So we have this ongoing persistent noise
causing nuisance and the helpline cannot take any action, can
it, to help prevent that from occurring if the undertaker is insistent
on it?
(Mr Berryman) The helpline is a telephone line which would
allow people to register the fact that there is a problem because
if we did not have a helpline people would not know where to go
to or how to register that something was the matter.
13193. It does not perform the function of actually
compelling the cessation of the nuisance, does it?
(Mr Berryman) No, of course not. It is a helpline to act
as a channel of communication between members of the public and
the project. The staff who man the helpline would not have authority
over how the works are being done; that is a matter for the resident
engineer and the site agent on the site. If the member of the
public cannot get satisfaction from them he would complain to
the Complaints Commissioner or the local authority.
13194. The Complaints Commissioner, as we know,
also has no powers of compulsion.
(Mr Berryman) The Complaints Commissioner does have some
powers of direction.
13195. He does not. He has no power of compulsion
to prevent the noise from continuing, does he?
(Mr Berryman) No, but the local authority does
have, does it not?
13196. So the Complaints Commissioner is of
no use if compulsion is necessary.
(Mr Berryman) As I said earlier on, the Complaints Commissioner
is in the position of a kind of Ombudsman, to actually hear what
the complaint is and ensure that the necessary action is taken
by the nominated undertaker. He does not have the power to walk
on to the site and stop work if that is what you mean, but he
does have the power to raise the matter at the appropriate level
within the nominated undertaker up to and including the Chairman,
and make sure it is dealt with in that way. I do not think it
is any different from any other similar kind of organisation.
13197. What the Complaints Commissioner information
document says is the Complaints Commissioner's role will not cover
the following: "Planning Conditions: Where a complainant
disagrees with the determination of conditions the Complaints
Commissioner may be called to mediate on matters of compliance
but be able to do no more than make recommendations to the nominated
undertaker and their contractor".
(Mr Berryman) Yes.
13198. So in that respect he has no powers to
require anything to happen.
(Mr Berryman) He has no executive power but he will have
the power of the need to comply with the requirements for the
safe and proper execution of the projects.
13199. In circumstances where a nuisance is
persisting, what compulsion is there available to someone who
is suffering a noise nuisance?
(Mr Berryman) The compulsion will be through the local authority.
13 Crossrail Information Paper F5-Complaints Commissioner
(LINEWD-IPF5-002) Back
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