Examination of Witnesses (Questions 340
- 347)
TUESDAY 27 NOVEMBER 2007
Dr Janet Dobson, Mr Steve Sinnott and Mr Mick Brookes
Q340 Lord Griffiths of Fforestfach:
I should like to address my question to Dr Dobson and her paper.
You gave us, first of all, very interesting statistics about the
flows of immigrant children and in particular the way in the 1980s
they were much higher than they have been in the last ten years.
Then you say that this demands more resources and if you have
more mobile pupils that demands more resources. You then list
five benefits to schools and society from immigration. You seem
to be saying that immigration by and large is a benefit to schools
and to society but there are two problems. The first problem is
that there is not enough money and more resources should be made
available. Secondly, you are saying that in terms of the timing
of the funding a head teacher might find that within his school
there is a substantial increase in pupil numbers but because of
bureaucracy the funding does not come. Am I right in thinking
that is the thrust of what you are saying, that immigration is
fundamentally a good thing and the only problem is that we lack
resources?
Dr Dobson: What I was trying to do was to present
a balance. There are problems for schools associated with immigration
and some schools find it much easier to manage than others and
the schools which manage best have a very positive attitude to
what they are doing. You go into the school and it has a brilliant
atmosphere where everybody is thriving. At the same time you have
to balance it against the other side of the picture, so I am trying
to say that there are swings and roundabouts.
Q341 Lord Griffiths of Fforestfach:
What is the downside, which I did not pick up strongly in what
you say in here?
Dr Dobson: I suppose the downside, since we
are all discussing the cost of immigration, is that you may have
to spend more money to get whatever benefits derive from it. In
order for schools to do a good job, they have to have the resources
they need to do it.
Q342 Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market:
Dr Dobson, you said in your evidence that many asylum seekers
and migrant families in low-paid employment move from place to
place in the early part of their time in the UK and often quite
quickly and that such children may stay only a few weeks or even
a day or two. How does this high pupil mobility affect the schools
concerned and how big or small an impact is it? Is it highly localised
and in that case a comparatively small effect or is it more general
than that?
Dr Dobson: First of all, I am glad you asked
me that because I wanted to give a supplementary response to what
my colleague said about the cost of educating migrant children.
There are all the things he talked about but there is also the
cost just of admitting, welcoming, inducting, assessing each new
pupil who arrives. If you have a school, as in one or two schools
where I have worked, which takes in 120 or 150 children at non-standard
times in the course of a year, for every one of those children
you have to go through this same process which often involves
several members of staff, a lot of time for senior management,
time for classroom teachers, time for administrators and then
off they go again. Yes, it does have this very negative impact
in terms of diverting resources.
Q343 Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market:
Is it mainly in metropolitan city areas or does it also impact
in rural areas?
Dr Dobson: The rural area problem is something
relatively recent. Perhaps what we ought to say, to try to get
an overall perspective on this, is that most migrant children
from overseas are still going into schools in towns and cities.
There are two things which have changed over the last few years
which affect the school system. One is the dispersal of asylum
seekers; there are places all round the country which either have
never had migrant pupils before or never had so many. Then there
is the impact on certain rural areas, which again is something
new. Overall the majority of children still go into schools in
towns and cities. In answer to your question, yes, it affects
some cities, parts of the country, more than others. Over a very
long period, several decades, London has received about 25 per
cent of the children coming in, the rest of the south-east about
25 per cent and the other 50 per cent elsewhere, although dispersal
and east European migrants have changed this a bit. Then within
local authorities it tends to be particular schools which really
bear the brunt. What happens, particularly in the secondary phase,
is that you have certain prestigious and popular schools which
fill all their places at secondary transfer, no room at the inn
when other children arrive. At the other extreme you have the
least popular and prestigious schools, usually the schools the
poorest children go to, lots of spare places; the new arrivals
go in there. The whole problem is compounded by the fact that
the most popular and prestigious schools tend to take children
from more stable families, so they do not move, so no vacancies
are created later on, whereas the least popular and prestigious
schools, who have homeless families, immigrants who have not yet
found anywhere permanent to live, children kicked out of other
schools, have a lot of movement as well, which creates spaces
for new children to be slotted into.
Mr Sinnott: I want to deal with the issue of
the movement of youngsters who come from migrant backgrounds.
For youngsters who do not come from migrant backgrounds but who
come from backgrounds where they are perhaps living in poverty,
that sequence of significant movement, of only staying in a school
or in a particular house for a short period of time, is a phenomenon
there too. If the migrants tend to be from a background in which
they too do not have a lot of money, that type of movement is
similar to that amongst the indigenous population, if they are
living in poverty.
Mr Brookes: May I pick up Dr Dobson's point?
It is very easy to be gloomy about this but quite a lot of my
colleagues, particularly colleagues in Lincolnshire, are saying
that the influx of migrant children has brought new life into
their schools. So there is another side to this. Just to quote
from Sir Robert Dowling, who is head of George Dixon International
School, he says that the school's overall performance has improved
significantly because of the arrival of highly motivated children
from refugee communities and he has used informal recruitment
routes to attract teachers from refugee backgrounds and has been
prepared to offer on-the-job training. There are all sorts of
success stories, which is why this has not really hit the headlines.
We just need to emphasise the wonderful work which is going on
in our schools to make sure that these children are welcome and
welcomed into our schools.
Mr Sinnott: May I give one additional example
about going into a school in a London area with a large number
of children from Nigerian backgrounds to see them in the breakfast
club, which takes place before school, organising a study group
for themselves and organising study groups for younger pupils
within the school? It is quite ambitious and entrepreneurial on
their part and having a really big impact positively on the school.
Chairman: That is a very balanced set
of answers, if I may say so. Thank you very much.
Q344 Lord Best:
Do schools actually know the immigration status of the children
that they are taking in? If they do know, does it make any difference
whether the migrants are legal or illegal or anything else?
Mr Sinnott: We would say very clearly to our
members, if they asked us, that they are teaching children, they
are responsible for the education of children, education is a
human right and they should teach the children whatever background
they come from. That chimes in with the culture and the spirit
of teachers and that is the most important point.
Mr Brookes: A child is a child; yes.
Dr Dobson: My impression is that they do not
know. I have never asked. They are not interested.
Q345 Lord Best:
It does not matter.
Mr Sinnott: That is absolutely right; it does
not matter.
Q346 Lord Layard:
You have described the situation very clearly. What about policy?
Are you happy with government policy on education of migrant children?
What changes would you like?
Mr Sinnott: In relation to some funding issues,
a significant change has been introduced in the past two weeks,
which is that the Exceptional Circumstance Grant has been announced
with a not insubstantial amount of money which will better enable
local authorities to draw upon funding for circumstances in which
there has been a not predictable increase in the number of youngsters
in the schools in that local authority. What we do not know is
what the ease will be with which schools will be able to draw
upon any funding that the local authority has access to and the
speed with which that can take place. I described the circumstances
in which in some schools they can within a short period of time
have a significant increase in the number of youngsters who have
needs associated with being the children of migrants and where
the resources may be months away, almost a year away before they
get the additional money in the school and the necessary resources
to support those youngsters. The Government have been listening
to what the NUT and others have been calling for and have taken
good steps in that regard. There is a need for us to get some
certainty into the system ahead of that being introduced in September
2008.
Dr Dobson: If you are asking the question about
general policy—
Q347 Chairman:
We have got the message about the underfunding, if I may put it
that way. Other aspects of the policy?
Dr Dobson: Governments never get the credit
for the things they do right. There is absolutely no doubt that
over the last ten years the present Government have funded a lot
of work in schools to tackle problems of mobility, to manage it
better, to provide better support for children with English as
a second language, to provide support for refugees and asylum
seekers; funding projects to help schools to work out better ways
of doing this in liaison with local authority advisers. There
is a lot of guidance now on websites and in publications. I would
wish, however, that Government would put thinking about migration
and mobility at the heart of all their policies. I think the more
schools become independent and do their own thing, the less cooperation
there will be and the more certain schools will become the repository
of the migrants and the poor.
Mr Brookes: Five very quick points: first or
all, a clear process for estimating the cost impact of immigration;
swift reaction so that resources can be put where they are needed;
establishing human resources, particularly where they are not
established at the moment; targeting financial resources; and,
finally, a review of admissions to ensure that a child is guaranteed
a good quality of entry into English schools.
Chairman: That is very good. Thank you
very much indeed. You have certainly covered a lot of ground and
you have covered it with clarity, so we have understood your view
and we are most grateful to you for your assistance to us in that
respect. Thank you very much.
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