Examination of Witnesses (Questions 460
- 462)
TUESDAY 11 DECEMBER 2007
Sir Simon Milton, Councillor Colin Barrow, Mr Andrew
Blake-Herbert, Mr Mick Gallagher and Ms Tracy Turner
Q460 Lord Macdonald of Tradeston:
There was my other question: why not just put up the taxes and
the wealthy could pay for the poor?
Councillor Barrow: We could put the council
tax up but the scale of the problem is very much larger than that.
An £18 million funding shortfall and a £40 million council
tax base shows the degree of the issue that we are dealing with.
It is too big a problem for the council tax.
Sir Simon Milton: If the council was to increase
its budget to the maximum permitted under the Government cap of
5%, it would generate another £1.5 million, so it is nothing
like the scale that we are talking about.
Q461 Lord Lawson of Blaby:
Just one quick follow-up from one of these. We heard earlier in
the very interesting session that we have had today some pretty
convincing examples of where the official statistics of the immigrants
of particular local authority areas are way, way out and way below
what you, with good reason, believe to be the population. How
much success are you having in persuading the Government that
your figures are right and their figures are wrong and that they
should act accordingly?
Sir Simon Milton: We have had great success
in persuading the Government that their figures are wrong, much
less success in persuading them that our figures are right. They
acknowledge the scale of the problem with the ONS, and I believe
ministers, in good faith, wish to see this fixed because they
are worried above all about the credibility of the ONS and the
knock-on effects that has in all areas of public policy-making.
The most difficult thing is going to be to find ways which have
credibility to apportion population within the UK. They can probably,
with more effort and more resource, crack the nut of how many
people are coming into the country and crossing our borders but
it is the distribution that is most difficult. If there is one
thought I would wish to leave the Committee with, it is that there
is no doubt that this country has benefited hugely. The DWP figures,
which we accept, talk about a net benefit to the UK of £40
billion, but that is felt to the national exchequer. The costs
of handling that and absorbing that are felt locally, but currently
there is no effective way of making sure that the benefits nationally
find their way to the right localities.
Mr Blake-Herbert: Just to add to that, Slough
has been challenging the figures quite publicly for about two
and a half years now.
Q462 Lord Lawson of Blaby:
I know.
Mr Blake-Herbert: I think we are very much at
the point where people understand and realise that the official
statistics are not accurate enough. To be fair to the Office for
National Statistics, they have not got access to all of the national
data sources that are available and they are trying to do the
best they can with what they do have available and it will take
time for them to be able to get that access. The task force which
they have set up should enable that to happen and, as Sir Simon
has said, we should be able to get more accurate figures going
forwards, but the issue for me is about the short term impact
that has on local authorities, hence the Local Government Association's
call for the £250 million. Whilst the Office for National
Statistics are away trying to improve those figures so we can
get more accurate numbers at a local level, it is very important
that we get some funding put in place through a specific grant
that local authorities can call on to enable us to support both
new migrants but also the current indigenous population in the
right way.
Chairman: May I thank you very much.
I got the feel from my colleagues that they found your answers
very helpful and germane to what we are considering and we are
extremely grateful to you for coming along and answering our questions
in this way. Thank you very much indeed.
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