Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1-19)
Ms Meg Munn, Ms Louise Lassman and Ms Ruzina Hasan
15 MAY 2008
Q1 Chairman: Minister, thank you very much indeed
for coming to some us this morning. We are the Sub-Committee of
the European Union Committee which deals with foreign affairs
and development policy, and we have been concerned for some time
about Burma; we have been in correspondence over the question
of the effectiveness of EU sanctions; and we are obviously also
concerned about the EU's political impact. We had hoped to see
you in any case and it is perhaps useful that your visit has occurred
at this time, and we are very glad that you have brought with
you Louise Lassman and Ruzina Hasan, both of whom have responsibilities
for Burma in the Foreign Office. Do you have an introductory statement?
Ms Munn: At the outset, may I say that I am
sure the Committee will understand that we are in an extremely
fast-moving situation, although I will obviously give the Committee
as best I can the updated information on what is happening on
the ground. I am also sure that the Committee will understand,
in terms of the officials I have present, that we were not clear
who was going to be able to come at the time because obviously
officials are extremely busy, and that some of the more senior
officials who normally would perhaps have supported a minister
in this situation have a great deal on their minds.
Q2Chairman: Thank you very much. Could you let
us know what is the current estimated extent of the human and
physical damage to Burma caused by the cyclone?
Ms Munn: Our understanding at the moment, and
this is the situation report from yesterday afternoon, is that
our best estimate is about 200,000 dead or missing. We believe
there are about one and a half million people in need of immediate
assistance, of whom about a quarter of a million to 270,000 are
desperately in need. The Committee will also be aware that we
are expecting heavy rain in the next five days from a further
cyclone, and therefore the problems of getting aid into the country
are exacerbated by the natural circumstances, as well as, of course,
by the Burmese regime.
Q3 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Minister, good
morning. Clearly the situation is desperate: access is vital for
the international community, both countries and NGOs. Is it true
that foreign aid workers have been ordered to leave the delta
by today?
Ms Munn: That is our understanding, that a number
of foreign workers have been asked to leave the area.
Q4 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Are they complying?
Ms Munn: I do not have any information in relation
to that. Our general understanding is there is a process which
the generals in charge are setting out: we understand that in
terms of some of the people on the ground there is more flexibility
being given, because they are obviously seeing what is happening,
but it is far from what we would expect of the government in this
situation.
Q5 Lord Anderson of Swansea: The BBC this
morning carried a story that six neighbouring countries have now
been given access by the Burmese generals. Is that true?
Ms Munn: I have not had confirmation of that.
We certainly believe that the countries in the region are enormously
important. They are all part of ASEAN, the Association of South
East Asian Nations, and therefore they have strong relationships
with Burma. I called in the Ambassadors from ASEAN yesterday and
we had a very full and frank discussion about that. They are concerned
to do whatever will work in terms of getting some help and support,
so we are hopeful that will be the case.
Q6 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Is there a
possible opening for us here? If privileged access were given
to the neighbours could we use that as a conduit for our own aid,
because obviously we do not worry how the aid is labelled so long
as it reaches the people who desperately need it?
Ms Munn: We have certainly said that from the
outset. We are very happy to get aid in through whatever means.
We are very clear that it should go to organisations such as World
Food Programme, Save the Children, et cetera, and, indeed, I am
told that the first aid that went in yesterday, which was Department
of International Development aid, the plane arrived there and
was passed on to the World Food Programme.
Q7 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Finally, on
the access point, clearly there is scepticism about the effectiveness
of air drops. Now, the French and Bernard Kouchner have put forward
the idea of a sea corridor. Is that part of EU policy? Is that
something we would favour?
Ms Munn: We are looking at all ways in which
we could get help in. We do have a ship in the region, as do the
United States and the French, and therefore we would certainly
look at that route. What we have to remember is that, without
the co-operation of the Burmese authorities, any successful aid
distribution is going to be extremely difficult.
Q8 Lord Chidgey: I would like, if I may,
to ask some more detailed questions on the same subject as Lord
Anderson was asking about. The question of the neighbouring states
has been commented on this morning in the BBC news. Does the Foreign
Office have any more information on this? One assumes that the
neighbouring states have particular relations with Burma, a mutual
dependency in some frame or other and one would expect that China
would figure very strongly in this. I would like to know whether
your office or the Government has made any particular protest
to the Chinese counterparts about what they intend to do in regard
to the situation. There is also the question of the 23 flights
that I think your colleagues mentioned this morning. 23 flights
have now been able to get into Burma, but the point was made that
23 flights a day were needed to address the situation. Is it not,
frankly, quite traumatic that the adequacy of the international
air force is so limited because of the situation, and really it
is not something one can brush aside, and I would like to know
a little more about what the Government's position is on trying
to increase the flow of flights and aid through to the appropriate
people? You mentioned Save the Children. They have, I understand,
a great many local staff which is why they are able to be in Burma,
because they mainly use local staff in these situations, and I
would like to know how that particular facility is being used
to best effect, bearing in mind their special situation. I do
not know of any other international aid organisations which have
that presence on the ground but you may be able to enlighten me.
Ms Munn: In relation to other countries, yes,
the Foreign Secretary spoke to his counterpart earlier this week,
on Tuesday, and raised the issue very strongly with him and pressed
China to press the issue with Burma. We know that the Thai Prime
Minister yesterday—I am struggling because of the difference
in the hours and the time—the Prime Minister from Thailand
went to see the Burmese regime yesterday. Lord Malloch Brown and
Shahid Malik, the Minister from the International Development
Department, are in Thailand and are due to see today, this afternoon
in Thai terms, the Prime Minister, so they will get more information
on that. In terms of the 23 flights, we understand the plan is
that that number of flights, if not more, should continue. That
has opened up the situation but we know it is inadequate. The
issue, of course, is not just getting the aid in: it is crucially
this issue about having the people on the ground to distribute
it. Now, the Burmese Permanent Representative at the UN has said
that ASEAN will complete an assessment of the situation within
48 hours and that 160 ASEAN regional relief workers will be allowed
to enter the area thereafter, so there will be considerably more
than have been in there going in hopefully very shortly. We know
it is not adequate, and I said this very clearly to the Ambassadors
yesterday.
Ms Hasan: Save the Children is certainly on
the ground; World Vision is also on the ground; Merlin, which
is a medical relief organisation, is also on the ground. The pattern
has been that those organisations which have had presence prior
to the cyclone are finding it easier to work now and NGOs who
have not had that presence are finding it much more difficult
to get visas, but we are pushing for access and for the visas
to be issued.
Q9 Lord Hannay of Chiswick: Could I just
go back to this ASEAN point? I can see why ASEAN are extremely
important diplomatic players, and it is very good that they are
being mobilised to bring pressure to bear on the Burmese government
to be more co-operative, but do they have any capability for dealing
with a crisis of this scale? Do they have helicopters? Do they
have distribution networks? 160 sounds, frankly, pretty meaningless
in an area this size, so what is our information about the capacity
of ASEAN to do the job if they are the only people who are allowed
to do so? And perhaps I could just add that I know Lord Jay, who
is the Chairman of Merlin, says that their people there are doing
very well because, as you say, they are on the ground and they
have not been interfered with in any way, and they have both expatriate
and Burmese staff working there in quite large numbers.
Ms Munn: In terms of ASEAN, it varies. Different
countries have different ranges of support. I am just trying to
remember which specific countries were saying this but Singapore,
for example, has offered quite a significant amount of aid and
I think Thailand were in the same position, so support does vary.
The other thing that the ASEAN Ambassadors said to me yesterday
is that, where they previously had experience of help and support,
particularly Thailand, Indonesia, obviously with the Tsunami and
Philippines with other general disasters, they were happy to press
the Burmese saying that these people coming in are humanitarian
workers and this is not a political situation, and this was a
point I stressed—the Burmese Ambassador was also present—that
we are not looking to exploit this politically in any way. This
is about getting humanitarian support in and preventing people
dying. So that is where we are. I do not know whether we have
any more specific information on the capacity of the ASEAN countries.
Ms Hasan: All I can add is that Thailand is
emerging as a hub obviously for the region and therefore has a
crucial role to play and in terms of equipment we look to Malaysia,
Singapore, Indonesia. How we are seeing it is that the West needs
to be working strongly with ASEAN for a massive scale-up, and
it is about working together and ensuring that we put pressure
on them, because they have a greater influence on the regime than
we do.
Q10 Lord Hamilton of Epsom: To follow up
on Lord Hannay's point, if it comes to the effective distribution
of aid you need helicopters, because the areas you are dealing
with are absolutely vast, firstly, and, secondly, roads and so
on do not work any more. Normally, where this has been effectively
done, the military have been involved because they have the helicopters
and the organisation to distribute. What is the attitude of the
Burmese to having foreign soldiers on their soil?
Ms Munn: Well, we know that the Burmese are
very reluctant to have any foreign workers generally coming in,
and I am sure that is a particular problem. The United States
have offered significant numbers of helicopters: we have a helicopter
with the ship that is in the region. We need to keep pressing
them, again, to be very clear that this is humanitarian support,
and this is where I think the other ASEAN countries, who have
experienced military assistance in a humanitarian way, are important
and that is why the meeting of the ASEAN foreign ministers next
Monday will be very important in them putting that information
across.
Q11 Lord Crickhowell: I am really pursuing
the same point. You talk about getting aid in and you talk, understandably,
about the importance of having people on the ground otherwise
you do not know quite what happens to it, but the fact is you
cannot get aid into the delta area where most of these people
are lying dead in the water or in appalling conditions without
the combination of a large number of helicopters and probably
flat-bottomed boats as well. In the Tsunami disaster the Americans
had a large aircraft carrier just offshore and a continual flow
of helicopters day and night going in. I do not see there is any
possibility of getting aid into where it is needed, even with
people on the ground and so on, unless there is the provision
of adequate physical equipment. Now, presumably the Chinese, who
might have been able to help, are now fully engaged and using
most of their helicopters on their own appalling disaster. How
far are we really pressing the ASEAN governments or the Burmese
government for some co-operative effort that will enable these
facilities, because without these facilities we are, frankly,
merely playing at the game?
Ms Munn: We are entirely focused on that very
matter. There is a huge amount of effort going on to press the
ASEAN governments to move on that, and we have been speaking directly
to foreign ministers and to other ministers in governments. Obviously
our posts overseas are doing exactly that. I know a number of
flat-bottomed boats have arrived, that was information I had yesterday
and, again, I am not sure of the number but we know that is what
is needed. We know there is a huge problem and that proper assessment
has not been done, but we do have estimates, as I said at the
outset. We are in no doubt about the scale of the need here. The
primary push has to be to get that access otherwise, as you rightly
say, nothing will happen and people are dying—and they are
dying today.
Q12 Lord Crickhowell: But if they will not
let the Americans in, and that may be their biggest point of resistance,
there are very large numbers of civilian and other helicopters
that could be made available around the world so are we discussing
with the ASEAN governments how those might be made available to
those other countries on loan or some other basis, so they can
bring the helicopters in if there are countries who are being
banned from crossing the frontier with helicopters?
Ms Munn: Well, the United States are getting
in in terms of planes and providing aid, so it is not quite as
clear-cut as your question might suggest. Our whole approach is
precisely to press diplomatically to try and get the movement
which would then allow the support to come in, and at the same
time to mobilise the support so that it is there as soon as it
is needed. Now, in the UN there are discussions going on around
that, and there has been a meeting yesterday on these very issues
to look at what needs to happen chaired by the Secretary General
and there is going to be a further meeting precisely to look at
further donations, because while we are all very frustrated at
the failure to get in to deal with the immediate situation, we
know from experiences with the Tsunami and the like that the help
and support that is needed is going to go on for a long time,
so there is a requirement to look at that as well, and so bringing
donors together is something that will happen as well in the near
future.
Q13 Lord Anderson of Swansea: On the question
of helicopters, the Russians and the Ukrainians are countries
which are thought, for example, in Darfur to have spare capacity.
Are the Russians and the Ukrainians engaged at all, and are you
aware of any conditions which the regime is imposing even on their
neighbours in terms of access?
Ms Munn: The regime itself is imposing conditions
on everybody at the moment, and is giving a little in certain
areas. I do not know specifically in relation to those two countries
about helicopter provision.
Ms Hasan: I am not aware of any information
on the situation with Russia and the Ukraine. I think our immediate
lobbying has been with those countries who are direct neighbours
of Burma whom we feel have the most leverage, but we can check
on that.
Q14 Lord Crickhowell: Now, this is a European
Committee so can I bring you to Europe? How is the EU responding
to the disaster, and is the response adequate? I read I think
that there was a meeting two days ago on the 13th. What has been
the outcome of that meeting and what is your latest information
about the European participation in all this?
Ms Munn: I have the Council's conclusions with
me and, as you say, the Council met; Douglas Alexander represented
the Government; and obviously it set out its deep concern and
its strong support. There have been financial donations, both
from the European Commission and from the ECHO. In addition to
that, Louis Michel, the Commissioner for Development and Humanitarian
Aid, is travelling to Burma and my latest information—and
my officials will correct me if I am wrong—is that he has
a visa and is going to press on this issue.
Q15 Lord Crickhowell: And the scale of the
aid that Europe has voted so far?
Ms Munn: I said on the floor of the House yesterday
that ECHO has given 2 million euros. I believe the Commission
has given more than that, something like 5 million euros.
Ms Lassman: That is the figure I had.
Q16 Lord Hamilton of Epsom: The French Foreign
Minister thinks we should go in any way, whether we are asked
or not. Is there a Plan B of Europe's so that when the Burmese
remain completely obdurate and will not have anything to do with
us, we go in anyway?
Ms Munn: We obviously have to keep the situation
under review and people are working round the clock on this, but
when we say we have to go in any way, the question is what do
we mean by that? I think the Prime Minister was quite right yesterday
at Prime Minister's Question Time that we would be wrong to suggest
to the British public that there is any easy way round this. What
are we talking about? It is extremely difficult to get into the
region even with unfettered access; we know that there are problems.
Without the co-operation of the Burmese regime, the Burmese military,
it would be extraordinarily difficult to see how we would achieve
that. So I think we are not ruling anything out and we are keeping
the situation under review, but our best assessment at the moment
is to seek the co-operation of the Burmese regime and to do that
through the neighbouring countries, and that was very much confirmed
by Ambassadors yesterday from the ASEAN countries who I was left
in no doubt are personally as concerned as we are, and are seeking
the best way forward. I do not think anybody is happy about this
situation at all. We find ourselves in an unprecedented situation
where we have a humanitarian catastrophe and a regime not accepting
outside help, but there are no easy answers.
Q17 Lord Hamilton of Epsom: There are relatively
simple answers in that the surrounding ASEAN countries could certainly
establish air supremacy—the Burmese are not famous for the
effectiveness of their Air Force—and then you could move
freely in the country anywhere you wanted.
Ms Munn: I do not believe that is easy to accomplish.
Chairman: I gather Lord Boyce is rather sceptical
about that too!
Q18 Lord Anderson of Swansea: Clearly it
is people on the ground—goods, tents, boats—which
are most important, but money can also play a part. Is the regime
putting restrictions in the way of the Burmese diaspora and private
individuals transferring money into the Burmese banking system
to help in this catastrophe?
Ms Munn: I have not heard of any problems of
that nature.
Q19 Lord Anderson of Swansea: On the transfer
of money?
Ms Munn: No.
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